Woodsmith shop

[peter Joseph]

I have seen many disparaging remarks right here on this forum in which people who used power tools were not regarded as real woodworkers. One side can be just as judgmental as the other. I am not familiar with the quote you highlighted but there are circumstances in which using hand tools would be lunacy. Have you ever run or worked in a production cabinet shop? A hand tool woodworker would go broke trying to compete with power tool shops unless he is building some high dollar specialty product. Are you saying cabinet shops aren't woodworking shops? If you are then your definition differs from that of most people.

OTOH, if someone gets great satisfaction using his manual woodworking skills or if he is building some specialty products that carry a high price then hand tools make perfect sense. There is a guy in my town who makes furniture by hand except for using a planer at times and his products command a higher price than I could ever afford.

Let me give you a good power tool example. I use a CNC router to carve images and lettering into trivets, coasters and inspirational signs. I sell as much of this stuff as I want to and the people who buy from me are proud of their purchase. It is absolutely true that a chip carver could reproduce many of the same things and the hand cut work might very well have more character. However, I can make things at a price that is satisfactory to me and a bargain to my customers. It takes a lot more knowledge and skill to set up to make these things than most people have. My wife is a graphic designer by trade and all of our work is original designs. Am I not a woodworker?.

I'd certainly consider you a woodworker as would most, but your use of a CNC machine brings up an interesting point.

If someone is very skilled at running their CNC, and produces an incredible sculpture in the process, are they then a woodcarver? I'd have to say no.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have seen many disparaging remarks right here on this forum in which people who used power tools were not regarded as real woodworkers. One side can be just as judgmental as the other. I am not familiar with the quote you highlighted but there are circumstances in which using hand tools would be lunacy. Have you ever run or worked in a production cabinet shop? A hand tool woodworker would go broke trying to compete with power tool shops unless he is building some high dollar specialty product. Are you saying cabinet shops aren't woodworking shops? If you are then your definition differs from that of most people.

OTOH, if someone gets great satisfaction using his manual woodworking skills or if he is building some specialty products that carry a high price then hand tools make perfect sense. There is a guy in my town who makes furniture by hand except for using a planer at times and his products command a higher price than I could ever afford.

Let me give you a good power tool example. I use a CNC router to carve images and lettering into trivets, coasters and inspirational signs. I sell as much of this stuff as I want to and the people who buy from me are proud of their purchase. It is absolutely true that a chip carver could reproduce many of the same things and the hand cut work might very well have more character. However, I can make things at a price that is satisfactory to me and a bargain to my customers. It takes a lot more knowledge and skill to set up to make these things than most people have. My wife is a graphic designer by trade and all of our work is original designs. Am I not a woodworker?.

Are you replying to Warren's quote? I don't see anything in his quote that suggests what you seem to be replying to.

[Steve Voigt]

I have seen many disparaging remarks right here on this forum in which people who used power tools were not regarded as real woodworkers.

Where? When? Which threads? Since you say you've seen "many disparaging remarks," can you link to more than one or two isolated examples? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to call people out publicly.

Earlier, Prashun implied that there were people out there saying that someone "isn't a real man" if he doesn't use hand tools. I asked if he could provide me with even one example, and I'm still waiting. I expect the same will be true of your comment. The angry hand-tool purist is a straw man that mostly doesn't exist. Yes, there are one or two of them out there, but that's true of anything.

[steven c newman]

Starting to sound like that "Pistol Grip Plane" thread? We all know where that wound up.....

[Malcolm McLeod]

I am a power tool woodworker (yeah, I know, I'm on the wrong side of the forum fence). But then 20 years ago, I read a book (OK, 2 books). It said tenons were easy to tune with a shoulder plane, and I was busy making crappy tenons on a TS (:: LN Med Shoulder appeared). This is nnnNNIIIICCCccee! Next epiphany came when trying to fit a 6ft x 7ft island top into a 12" Belsaw...??? (:: LN 4 1/2 Smoother). OK, maybe that crappy (=dull) block plane in the bottom of Dad's junk drawer could be of use? Sharp and it is. So, I lurk here and try to learn a little. I'll probably never be a Neander, but maybe, just maybe I'll learn something.

That said, I am VERY cautious about posting on this side of the fence. I have been a SMC member for right at a year, and there are certainly 'hot-button' issues that polarize people here; not counting the forbidden ones:
Glowforge (...maybe let the market decide? Or just bash each other.)
SawStop (buy it, or don't ...and let the market decide)
Plane design (Mateo's recent thread got nuked last night ...talk about polarized, geez)

And of course, Neader vs Power. I hope I'm somewhere in the middle, and so can see both sides, so please rest assured that there IS a bias here, each against the other. Literally hundreds of subtle, and not so subtle, jibes over the last year. Some in this thread. (I try to stay out if it so I don't get publicly filleted. But ask yourself, why would I feel I'm on the wrong side of the fence?) ..If you don't see it, perhaps you have drifted too far from the fence??

Granted, SMC is far more civil than the average internet exchanges ....but maybe both sides could ride shorter horses? ("Can't we all just get along?" - R.King). All tools have a place. Use what suits you and the circumstances. Allow other's the same without judgement.

If you're reading thru the progression of tone and attitude here, "emotion" has arrived and this thread is probably headed for the 'nuked' bin as well.

[Jim Koepke]

If you're reading thru the progression of tone and attitude here, "emotion" has arrived and this thread is probably headed for the 'nuked' bin as well.

I hope not Malcolm. If my intent was to do profitable production, then power tools in my shop would be the solution. It is difficult at best to make high end, high dollar products for a mass market.

I do not like to make things of plywood. However plywood is possibly the best solution for me when a large drawer bottom is needed.

Most of the people in my area are looking for quality at garage sale prices. It is difficult to sell for the cost of materials let alone making a bit for the effort.

Even the people who are looking for something 'new,' they want me to beat Walmart or Ikea prices with a hand made in America product.

The old saying, "there is more than one way to skin a cat," could be changed to woodworking, "there is more than one way to make a tenon or cut a dovetail."

Just like another contentious subject, just because I freehand sharpen doesn't mean I do not see the advantages of using a sharpening guide. I am just a bit too frugal and lazy to bother using one.

My idea of lazy may also be different than others. For me getting the work done right quickly gives me more time to lay back than my former coworkers who struggled with getting their work done without having to do it over.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Steve-
I wish I could retract that criticism, because it's moot and my intimation has just fueled a debate that a moderator might should not participate in.

The quote was in this very thread. I now suspect this was said tongue in cheek, but here was the comment I meant:

"They are ,without a doubt, modernistic woodworkers and they are good at what they do. But they spent about fifteen minutes talking about lumber selection and why to or not to get certain things. I mean come on, you haven't sweated lumber selection until you've went out, spotted a tree, crosscut or hewed it down, length it,(took a break for lunch), hand ripped out the boards, jointed the boards, and then you make the what you want to make."

Personally, I can appreciate the joy in harvesting lumber by hand, but not having done that doesn't make one less qualified to select boards for a project. I think.

FWIW, I agree with your sentiment and really wish I could take it back. But since you asked...

[Mike Holbrook]

I think there is a difference between making a strong argument for a particular methodology and for instance name calling or being too vehement about an opinion. Certainly topics are often hotly debated on these pages, even among people who may have become quite friendly over long periods of time. I think the hard part for most people is separating their opinion from "fact". I think we could even make a case that even "facts" are debatable. What proof do we have of "factuality"?

There have been a number of posts in the last year that sort of pitted engineering and or math up against experience which tended to cause strong emotions. I am of the opinion that science, engineering and math have no more claim on "factuality" than the ultimate teacher raw experience. For formulas/ scientific testing...to be valid the control group has to be perfect and any and all variables have to be exactly right. In my book the required conditions are never arrived at. I am quite certain that there are others who feel pretty much the exact opposite. I am ok with the other side of the argument up until someone denies my right to my point of view or starts name calling.

It seems to me that these discussions, yea even arguments, are our greatest opportunity to learn from each other. I do feel sorry for the moderators at times, as they have to make value judgements regarding where threads are leading and when to step in. So, one more time, thanks to our moderators for trying to keep us "honest".

[Joe Tilson]

The tools they use are from their sponsors. Powermatic all the way. Sell them tools boys, sell them tools. That's what it all about.
They do very well planned and thoughtful work and their explanations are so even the new to woodworking can grasp what's going on.

[Steve Voigt]

Prashun, you know I like you, but seriously, if that's the best you can come up with, I'll just say thanks for proving my point. The comment you quote from Brent was entirely tongue in cheek (if it wasn't, I'll apologize to you publicly and wash your car* the next time I'm in Jersey**). Should we take all satire seriously from now on? And even if you take it literally, I don't think that "haven't sweated lumber selection" = "not a real man."

I'll resume my lonely watch, waiting for some real examples…


* by hand, of course.

** Hopefully I'll never be in Jersey…I'm a Brooklyn guy! Why would I want to go where it floods every other week?

[Prashun Patel]

Looking back, Steve, I can see how it may be tongue in cheek. I'm usually the king of tongue in cheek comments, so I should have recognized it as such.

Anyway, whether it was meant seriously or not, I feel rather silly about all this.

Steve, the next time our flooding brings down a Jersey tree, I'll smoke signal you, and you can ride down on a horse and hew me up some wood while I watch reruns of Woodsmith Shop on my Smartphone

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Another time, I was demonstrating mortice-and-tenon joint making with chisels and tenon saw at my woodworking club. I passed the pieces around to members to look at. One came up to me later to ask how the parts were sanded to obtain the finish I got. Of course they were planed in 2 minutes - I just took for granted the finish (that would require probably several grits of sandpaper, not to mention the dust and rounded corners).

So, how long did you sand?

<run and hide>

[Brent Cutshall]

People, I posted this thread as a comic opinion. I do not think power woodworkers are any less than other woodworkers. The reason I use hand tools is because I am what some people may call "financially troubled". I don't have power tools because I can't afford them. If I need a tool, I will sometimes end up making one. I try to do power tool work with hand tools because I ain't lucky enough to do it power tools. I have got good using hand tools and that's why I like them. A lot of my good friends are power toolers, and I would love to have some of the toolage on that show. I chop or saw down a tree because I don't have a chainsaw because I can't get gas. Yeah, I would like to have a chainsaw, no I don't think it makes someone any less of a man. This thread was not meant to be an insult to power toolers, and I happen to still like the show. I fully apologize if anyone was insulted by my foolish rants.

[Pat Barry]

I won't give up my table saw and battery drill screwdriver as long as I live. All tools have a place. I'd you want to rip and crosscut everything by hand, and then drill all your holes with an egg beater and screw every screw by hand I won't try to talk you out if it.

[John Glendening]

I haven't seen that show. But it irritates me that everyone has the word "SMITH" applied to their name. A SMITH is someone who HAMMERS his work into shape. You've got "bike smiths",and all kinds of smiths popping up everywhere. I would not like to have my BIKE(If I HAD one) hammered on by a SMITH!!!

So,if I see a show labeled "SMITH"it is a signal that the show will be a bunch of amateurs who can't even come up with a correct name for their show.

Point well taken, but it's a little more complex.
"Word Origin and History for smith n. Old English smið "blacksmith, armorer, one who works in metal" (jewelers as well as blacksmiths), more broadly, "handicraftsman, practitioner of skilled manual arts" (also including carpenters), from Proto-Germanic *smithaz "skilled worker" (cf. Old Saxon smith, Old Norse smiðr, Danish smed, Old Frisian smith, Old High German smid, German Schmied, Gothic -smiþa, in aiza-smiþa "coppersmith"), from PIE root *smi- "to cut, work with a sharp instrument" (cf. Greek smile "knife, chisel"). Attested as a surname since at least c.975.

v. Old English smiðian "to forge, fabricate, design," from the source of smith (n.). Related: Smithed ; smithing.




Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper "
So, a custom bike maker could indeed be referred to as a "smith" - heating, pounding, bending metal both flat and round. Bu that's not the point, which is the skill to make something within a specific medium - wood, iron, silver deserves to be included in that etymology. Words evolve just like the rest of life. I like their work, but not their general exclusion of unplugged hand tools. That doesn't make them unskilled, but rather perhaps inefficient in some activities. I do find myself thinking how a handtool could be an equal or better choice without the need to torture more electrons.

There's another show on PBS called "A Craftsman's Legacy". The host is a very skilled bike builder, who appreciates the hand work of those who work in glass, wood, metal, clay, and other media to create some truly beautiful and in many cases exceptionally useful artifacts. i know, this is a manual arts forum that focuses on wood, but it is possbile to appreciate the work of others.