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Thread: New to DC - any advice is appreicated

  1. #1

    New to DC - any advice is appreicated

    I am new to dust collection. I have a 20x40 shop and a few tools and would like to get a good system put together. I will plumb the main lines in and use flex hose at the end closest to the tool. I'll probably have a few floor sweeps as well. This is a hobby shop, just getting started, but my goal is to be able to become skilled enough to make a modest supplemental income for my wife and I after I retire in 10 years. Mostly one or two machines at a time. Using saw while one of my children sweeps up, or a few going when I have the scouts over working on projects.

    Tools I have
    10" 3hp cabinet saw
    19" 3hp bandsaw
    15" 3hp spiral planer
    Lathe
    8" 3hp spiral jointer

    I was looking at a 3HP bag or canister setup, and since the shop is not on heat/ac and for noise reduction I was planning on putting the unit in a small shed attached to the outside of the building to protect from the elements. I would likely put a cyclone collector close too machines that would benefit from it the most - like the planer. I'd just do a garbage can lid style cyclone separator there.

    For the discussion I was just looking at the features of these two units on the Grizzly site.
    http://www.grizzly.com/products/G103...campaign=zPage
    http://www.grizzly.com/products/3HP-...campaign=zPage

    Is 3HP sufficient? Overkill?
    Since it is outside does the filter (2.5 v 1.0 micron) matter as much?

    Being new to dust collection I'd be happy to hear any advice. I have read much on the forum and watched a lot of videos on youtube - however nothing better then fresh candid advice to my particular situation.

    Thank you!
    Jason

  2. #2
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    For a shop that size and wanting to possibly operate two tools at a time Id say you should be looking at a 5HP unit. Something like the Oneida V-5000 or Clear-VUE Cyclone units and running at the VERY least a 6 inch main duct. If youre going to be venting outside then you could go filter less but you do have to have some way of bringing air back into the shop to compensate for the suction as I understand it with outside venting systems.

    Also, as with everything, the show stopper is always budget. How much (max) are you willing to spend on this system?
    If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rivel View Post
    For a shop that size and wanting to possibly operate two tools at a time Id say you should be looking at a 5HP unit....
    I agree with Ben and I don't think you will be sorry installing a 5hp cyclone. I put a 5hp ClearVue in my shop and ran 6" pvc ducts to five 6" drops which I split to 4" where needed. It has excellent suction. The thing is LOUD. It would be louder than a freight train but I built a sound-insulated closet for it and the big air compressor. With it running in the closet I can carry on a conversation in a normal voice. I built a sound-dampened return air duct for filtered air from the closet.

    JKJ

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by John K Jordan View Post
    I agree with Ben and I don't think you will be sorry installing a 5hp cyclone. I put a 5hp ClearVue in my shop and ran 6" pvc ducts to five 6" drops which I split to 4" where needed. It has excellent suction. The thing is LOUD. It would be louder than a freight train but I built a sound-insulated closet for it and the big air compressor. With it running in the closet I can carry on a conversation in a normal voice. I built a sound-dampened return air duct for filtered air from the closet.

    JKJ
    Thats interesting that you say the ClearVue is so loud. They list the noise level at 78db at 10ft on their website. Same as the Onieda V-5000. I have the Oneida V-3000 and its listed as 73db at 10ft and I dont think its that loud. Im wondering how much louder 5db really is. On top of that I dont operate any of my tools without hearing protection so noise level isnt really an issue for me, but I have run the V-3000 without hearing protection and didnt find it to be that loud.
    If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

  5. #5
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    To some extent, noise increases with cfm, particularly cfm under pressure, so quiet is not always the best. They are all loud but ear muffs are mandatory anyway. As someone who has reinvented the wheel multiple times on DC, I'd go right away with a cyclone and 5 hp unit. 3 hp might be fine but the cost isn't much more and a larger impeller allows you to screw up the pipe size a little and get away with it. 7-8" mains and 5-6" flex leading to the machine port- even if only 4". Do some reading on pipe sizes and fittings. They cost as much as the system but are easy to get wrong. A 3 hp bagger will need oversize bags so you need to budget an extra $300 for those. A cartridge without a prefilter can clog up easily and a garbage can type really wipes out your cfm. Go with a cyclone and do it right. I went from a 2 hp bagger to a 3 hp cyclone, to a 5 hp cyclone with curved impeller to a radial impeller, and finally to a 7.5 hp radial operating on a vfd to adjust speed. You can be more efficient than my methods- although they taught me a lot. Dave

  6. #6
    I won't comment on size but I will comment that if you want to put the unit outside and discharge outside you do not need a filter but I would put a cyclone outside at the location of the fan just to keep from blowing chips and dust all over. With a decent cyclone there should be minimal visible dust. I don't think you want separators close to the machines, it works fine to let it all get separated at the DC.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rivel View Post
    Thats interesting that you say the ClearVue is so loud. They list the noise level at 78db at 10ft on their website. Same as the Onieda V-5000. I have the Oneida V-3000 and its listed as 73db at 10ft and I dont think its that loud. Im wondering how much louder 5db really is. On top of that I dont operate any of my tools without hearing protection so noise level isnt really an issue for me, but I have run the V-3000 without hearing protection and didnt find it to be that loud.
    "Loud" is subjective without a meter to measure. (It also depend on the individual's hearing acuity or level of loss.) My CV1800 certainly seems louder than 78 db but I didn't measure it. (sometimes people selling things "cheat" by measuring the sound level in a sound dampened room, ignoring the sound reflections in the real world) I just knew I didn't want to be in the same room. My sound closet has double doors leading away from the shop and I know I can't open those doors without hearing protection.

    I did measure the sound level outside the closet when I first fired it up. (can't remember the numbers now) If I get time tonight or tomorrow I'll get out the db meter and write down some numbers on both sides of the closet wall. Just for fun.

    JKJ

  8. #8
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    Agree with Jim. If you can vent outside you don't need to worry about bags and filters or cleaning them. I have the large no name cyclone sold on eBay and it works great. There is no visable dust of chips. Venting outside using a cyclone was one of the biggest improvements I made to my system. There is no drop in performance due to filter or bag clogging.
    When working I had more money than time. In retirement I have more time than money. Love the time, miss the money.

  9. #9
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    Sound measurements on ClearVue cyclone

    Ok, I got out the sound meter and took some measurements. Since ClearVue states 78dB at 10' without explanation it would be entertaining to ask them just how they got that number. They also don't state whether it is measured as dBA or dBC. Since I'm not clear when to use which I listed both below.

    My CV1800 is MUCH louder than ClearVue states. The cyclone is the quietest when all the blast gates are closed. This makes sense since ClearVue states there the system works the hardest and the motor pulls the most amps when the airflow is unrestricted. If the airflow is cut off completely the motor is just freewheeling in partial vacuum.

    Perhaps ClearVue measured their cyclone a room with all surfaces covered with sound insulation and with the intake sealed off and maybe even with the exhaust vented outside. Just guessing. Although they could justify this to get a base sound level it would not reflect use in a real shop.

    The numbers I got with 5hp CV1800 with dual filters attached, 6" ducts, one 6" blast gate open:

    105+ dB in the closet about 5' from the cyclone, X
    96 dBC / 92 dBA at 10' from the cyclone (in the bay area with the closet doors open), X
    72 dBC / 57 dBA at 10' from the closet (in the shop), bandsaw blast gate open, *
    65 dBC / 52 dBA at 20' in the center of the shop, bandsaw blast gate open, *
    72 dBC / 67 dBA standing at bandsaw with bandsaw blast gate open, *
    95 dBC / 93 dBA standing at lathe ~2' from the air intake on 4" flex duct, lathe blast gate open, X

    ( X: hearing protection needed )
    ( *: normal conversation possible )

    Note that in my shop there is far more "noise" from the air moving at the intakes then there is from the cyclone itself in the closet. In the case of the lathe the sound is deafening since the intake is practically pointing at the person just a couple of feet away. With the bandsaw running I can hardly hear the cyclone in the closet. The table saw is far louder than the cyclone (in the closet).

    As for typical sound levels, one comparison chart lists:
    60-65 dB : normal conversation at 3'
    80 dB : telephone dial tone
    85 dB : city traffic (inside car)
    90 dB : truck traffic, train whistle at 500'
    95 dB : jackhammer at 50'
    danger of hearing loss: 90-95 dB

    JKJ

  10. #10
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    Jason,

    I agree with the previous posters. At least a 3HP cyclone and better a 5HP. Minimum 6" lines to the machines and maybe a 7" or 8" trunk with 6" drops. Don't waste your time and money with a trash can separator. They simply don't do what we all hope they do. There is very little separation and you will be cleaning clogged filters-often. The bag units don't filter the real fine dust and will have you looking for a canister filter. Buying a single stage DC like the Grizzly units will leave you still cleaning clogged filters frequently. Skip the intermediate steps and go right to a cyclone with either good canister filters, or if possible, vent outside. You have some large chip and dust producing tools. You need a capable system to clean up after them and keep the harmful dust down in your shop.
    Last edited by James Gunning; 08-26-2016 at 8:59 AM.

  11. #11
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    My only disagreement here is with the assumption that bags won't filter fine dust and that cartridges are automatically better. With a pre separator capable of getting much of the fines that may be true. A direct bagger with oversize singed poly bags spec'd for the cfm of the unit and type of dust can outperform a cartridge. Takes up more room but much easier to clean and keep the cfm up. Commercial cartridge units for handling fines generally are enclosed with the dirty air surrounding the cartridges. Every so often a jet of air is pulsed through the inside to blast out the pleats. When you hear the blast the first time you don't want to wear white pants. The pressure of the blast is impressive. That is not to say that cartridges don't work when the fines are on the inside, but cleaning them is not easy compared to banging a bag with a broom. Once any filter media begins to clog enough to reduce cfm, the ability to filter becomes less relevant as more dust is escaping the machine itself and using your lungs to filter. There is always lots of discussion about filter ratings but as big a danger to us is the air that doesn't get to the filters before we inhale some of it. DAve

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rivel View Post
    Thats interesting that you say the ClearVue is so loud. They list the noise level at 78db at 10ft on their website. Same as the Onieda V-5000. I have the Oneida V-3000 and its listed as 73db at 10ft and I dont think its that loud. Im wondering how much louder 5db really is. On top of that I dont operate any of my tools without hearing protection so noise level isnt really an issue for me, but I have run the V-3000 without hearing protection and didnt find it to be that loud.
    Every 6dB is a doubling of the level. So 84dB is twice as loud as 78dB.

  13. #13
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    Here is a quick video of my sound measurements with an Oneida 2 hp SDG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X8qwMqm3Ek
    NOW you tell me...

  14. #14
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    I just finished (99%) putting in the Oneida Super Dust Gorilla 5 hp on a fairly similar sized shop. The 5hp was only about $100 more from the 3hp, not sure I "need" it. It is not my first DC method and I am very happy with it. Great shipping and nice product. With the exception of mounting the motor on top, you will need help, it goes together easy and the instructions are good. I used the design service for the duct work.

    My experience with Oneida and what I would do different-

    1- The model I bought came with free design once you bought the unit. I would pay the $250 upfront to get the design done, it is refundable upon purchase of the unit. That way they do the design and you are happy with it before ordering. Customer service took a fast nose dive after I already paid and it was delivered. Get it right first, then
    buy it. The design came back twice with errors, not changes I made, just outright errors on their part. They then said you only get one chance to make any alterations wih the design service or you have to pay more. After a bunch of noise they got it correct. The original design took about 2-3 days, after it was paid and delivered it was a good week to fix the problems, like tools in wrong place etc. The design process was unnecessarily lengthy and difficult. They did say they were real busy so YMMV.

    2- when you are building the duct work you will inevitably be short a few pieces, make changes on your own, etc etc. Once I got everything I had trouble even getting responses from the sales person for a few pieces here and there. They bent over backwards before I bought. I ended up giving up and just opening an account online and ordering direct from them and not the salesperson. Responses to any questions went from an hour response time to days.

    3- in the design process you do not have direct contact with the designer. You have to go through the salesperson. That can be frustrating explaining something to sales, who then relays it to design, and you get back what ever. Maybe if you went that route you can push for direct contact with the designer? I wish I did.

    i am very happy with the Oneida system. I had a technical issue I had to call for and they were spot on. Sales was great until I got it, then it dropped off.

    overall happy, performance is great, but there are a few things that can improve if you know about them ahead of time, I hope that helps somebody,

  15. #15
    John, I'd be very interested in seeing your closet setup - just what I'm trying to do. Maybe inside can be an option... thank you!
    Jason

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