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Thread: Saw Till Design

  1. #1
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    Saw Till Design

    Now that the hand tools rack has cleared enough random tools off the bench to let me find my bench, I need to make a plane rack and a saw till. Aka I need to stop hanging my saws on the wall on nails.

    My main constraint is I only have about two feet of wall space. so I was looking for a design that puts the planes up high and the saws hanging handle up / blade down below. I'll be keeping the joinery saws in the rack I already have so this would be for the 10 odd panel saws I have.

    So question: why do 95% of the designs on the interwebs seem to have the saws resting on handles with blades up? I'm assuming the main reason is the saws don't all have the same hang angle if stored blade down? Whereas if stored handle down the two points of contact (bar and blade tip) define the angle. Something else?

    Also how are people storing big bow saws for those of us that roll that way?

  2. #2
    I've seen saw tills that are vertical as you say, but below them, people have used string or leather straps to dangle the planes vertically by the knob... looks scary as heck to me, but I'm sure it's far more secure than it looks.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Stokes View Post
    I've seen saw tills that are vertical as you say, but below them, people have used string or leather straps to dangle the planes vertically by the knob... looks scary as heck to me, but I'm sure it's far more secure than it looks.
    It is fine and dandy until one of the strings breaks. I wouldn't hang planes that way either, but to each their own.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  4. #4
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    There's a nice saw till article in the current PWW mag. Not the style you're wanting, but worth a look.
    Life's too short to use old sandpaper.

  5. #5
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    I have the handles in alternating directions, so I can pack more in the same space.

  6. #6
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    Matthew:

    I have mentioned this on the Forum before, but I am not fond of open saw tills for the purpose of permanent storage of saws in a shop environment because they do not protect the saws from dust, humidity changes, and the resulting rust-inducing condensation.

    Unlike the thousands of little green men (many wearing red hats) with knives that chase me whenever I go out my front door this is a problem anyone can see, especially those that live in a hot and humid climate, or in in seaside areas. You might want to consider the protective qualities of your saw storage solution, especially if you too see the little green men.

    But for short-term storage, an open till or rack makes perfect sense.

    You bring up a very valid point about a saw's handle orientation in the saw till or rack. Steel warps (vs "deflects or "bends") over time in response to pressure, more than wood, as a matter of fact. This is plastic deformation, and unless corrected, is permanent. In fact, if a precision steel straightedge is stored leaning against a wall, it may well warp. The same exact thing happens with saw blades. The methods of preventing this slow plastic deformation ("creep") is to either hang the tool from a central hole or other connection (such as a handle) or to support the blade evenly long its length. Therefore, space permitting, the best solution, IMO, is to store a saw with the blade supported on the rack by the handle with the blade hanging straight down.

    I don't have a picture, but I built a saw rack that follows this principle. Essentially, it is a 1-1/4" thick board, oriented horizontally, and supported by vertical boards at each end. This board has a vertical slot cut into into it a little wider than the saw blades. The saw blade slips into the slot with the handle above the board, and the blade hanging down. Voila. My rack is designed to hold Japanese saws which are much shorter and narrower than Western saws, but the principle is applicable to Western saws too. With four such horizontal boards, it will store 20 Japanese saws.

    My saw rack does not have a back. I hang it from a wire rack with a couple of hooks.

    It is not a new or original idea. Just an alternative to the open-air Sacred Saw Alter that is currently in fashion.

    The idea of hanging saws by a string or wire makes me cringe!

    Stan
    Last edited by Stanley Covington; 06-21-2016 at 6:22 AM.

  7. #7
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    Hi Stanley, my understanding is that plastic deformation is permanent. Its what happens when the material is strained to the point where it doesn't spring back, thus taking a permanent set. Say you take a paper clip and bend it a bit, - it will spring back to shape. Bend that same clip a bit too far and it won't. That's because of plastic deformation. The thing with steel and most materials is that the plastic deformation is accompanied by localized changes in grain structure and hardness. Thus it is difficult to bend that same paper clip back to its original position because in order to do so you need to cause more plastic deformation, overcoming the initial damage and cause even more local work hardening - this leads to fracture failures. Creep is phenomenon that is deformation due to strain but strain that happens over a long period of time. I didn't think that could happen in a normal, minimal load condition such as storage or similar circumstance for steel. In my work we see creep as a concern for soldered connections which might be strained over time in a heated condition (inside an electronic device for example with poor ventilation).

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    Hi Stanley, my understanding is that plastic deformation is permanent. Its what happens when the material is strained to the point where it doesn't spring back, thus taking a permanent set. Say you take a paper clip and bend it a bit, - it will spring back to shape. Bend that same clip a bit too far and it won't. That's because of plastic deformation. The thing with steel and most materials is that the plastic deformation is accompanied by localized changes in grain structure and hardness. Thus it is difficult to bend that same paper clip back to its original position because in order to do so you need to cause more plastic deformation, overcoming the initial damage and cause even more local work hardening - this leads to fracture failures. Creep is phenomenon that is deformation due to strain but strain that happens over a long period of time. I didn't think that could happen in a normal, minimal load condition such as storage or similar circumstance for steel. In my work we see creep as a concern for soldered connections which might be strained over time in a heated condition (inside an electronic device for example with poor ventilation).
    Pat, I believe your understanding is correct, but your conclusion is a bit off, IMO.

    Nearly all materials creep, including steel and concrete. Wood does too, but comparatively little. How much steel creeps and how long it takes depends on the loading conditions and nature of the steel. Thinner materials are more likely to exhibit creep than thicker ones. This tendency is aggravated by the very nature of high-quality saws which are differentially hardened, taper ground, and hammer tensioned with lots of intentional internal stresses.

    Sorry for the lecture....

    Most people that use their saws regulary will never notice this warpage, and even if it does develop, will assume they tweaked it accidentally. But like the little green men, just because you don't notice them does not mean they are not there, kept at bay only by my custom aluminum foil cap!

    in any case, saws are especially at risk as I know from spending lots of money on blacksmiths to straighten out old but unused handmade saws that were stored improperly.

    When given a choice, it is better in my opinion to store saws in a way that reduces the risk of this avoidable warpage.

    Stan

  9. #9
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    Hey! I'm making something like this right now. I found a great little enclosed saw til design in Wakeling's book, "Things to Make in Your Shop." It has a vertical rest for the saws and the blades slip down into slots cut for the blades. The original design calls for keeping a small dish of kerosene in the bottom but I will instead leave pocket for a bag of Dry-Fit to keep moisture under control.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Nelson View Post
    Hey! I'm making something like this right now. I found a great little enclosed saw til design in Wakeling's book, "Things to Make in Your Shop." It has a vertical rest for the saws and the blades slip down into slots cut for the blades. The original design calls for keeping a small dish of kerosene in the bottom but I will instead leave pocket for a bag of Dry-Fit to keep moisture under control.
    Josh:

    Please show us drawings or pics if you get a chance. I will take some pictures of mine later this week and post them.

    Stan

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Covington View Post
    Josh:

    Please show us drawings or pics if you get a chance. I will take some pictures of mine later this week and post them.

    Stan


    Of course.



    It's hard to see but it is a closing cabinet. The text notes:
    The case illustrated in Fig. 25 was designed to protect saws from dampness in a basement shop that was none too dry. It is hung on the wall, and a dish of kerosene is kept in the bottom.

    Another advantage of a cabinet of this type is that the teeth are not exposed to accidental damage as when the saws a re hung on nails in the open shop.

    The box can be built of waste lumber 7/8 inch thick. It is 12 inches deep. 14 1/4 in. wide, and 42 in. high. The saw holder is 12 1/2 by 11 in. with slots 2 1/2 in. apart, running with the grain. There should be a reinforcing cleat 4 by 12 1/2 in. across the underside of the saw holder, at the back. The foors , too should be well cleated to prevent warping, and hung with three hinges.

    Finish the case with stain and varnish, or paint, as preferred.

  12. #12
    I have way more saws than that guy in the picture. I like the idea expressed, though. When my current build is done the next item may well be a saw till like that, but much more.

  13. #13
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    My dad was not a woodworker but he had a cabinet like that one illustrated with the pan of kerosene in the bottom. I did not take it when we cleaned out his house as there is no more room in my shop as it is. The odd thing is he only had about two saws, but there were slots for about ten. It was a bit different though it had the door on the front like the one above but the top was hinged so one could lift the saws straight up and kerosene compartment stayed closed.
    Jim
    Ancora Yacht Service

  14. #14
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    Fascinating.

    I have heard of using kerosene (usually combined with oil) applied to metal to prevent rust, but I never heard of using a dish of kerosene in an enclosed space to control rust. Is this a useful method, or just and old-timey leap of faith?

    Stan

  15. #15
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    Is there a chemist in the house that can explain to me how a dish of kerosene prevents rust?

    (I understand oiling or waxing the metal can protect it from moisture and that kerosene is (sorta') a light volatile oil. But, how does a dish protect the metal? Does it evaporate from the dish and then condense on the metal?)

    Thanks.

    (ETA: I was typing while Stanley was.)

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