XB-1060 laser engraver purchase - disapointing so far...

[Scott Cowell]

Dave,
Your hobby use is right up my alley. I imagine building one-off clocks in 1/4" ply or mdf. Cutting parts for the daughters comicon costumes out of foam, cloth and thin wood. I am involved with the local community theater and build sets and props. Making board games, puzzles and kids toys. I would like to play with Escher-like tesselated tiles for counters or maybe the bathroom floor. Youtube shows a guy building Escher-like chessboards that are inspiring. Kinetic sculptures with wooden gears and marble runs look like fun. I imagine using the laser cutter and thin hardboard or MDF to make router templates. My youngest daughter will eventually want a spectacular dollhouse. Did I mention I have SEVEN wonderful children to please? We are a crafty family and already focus on handmade gifts when Christmas and birthdays come around, not to mention all the handmade decorations. I forsee building custom shaped chalkboards, linoleum block printing, stencils, felt boards and so on.

I realize and acknowledge that most of this could be done on a smaller, low power laser, and quite frankly, if I purchased one of the $500 POS tiny machines, I would still have lots of fun. But when you couple ADD and a creative bent, I want to have the versatility. Who knows what my twisted little mind will come up with. I like to have the "can do" attitude coupled with the "I don't know, let's try it" philosophy. I also want to inspire these traits in my children. This is reflected in my hoard of tools and toys. I saw some neat projects with vacuum forming, so I built a small vacuum table, some frames, ordered some sheet plastics and gave it a try. Moderate success. Lots of fun. And I still have that homemade vacuum table available for use. - Glass blowing looked like fun, so I got some glass rods, grabbed my plumbers torch, made up some mandrels and started making glass beads. Just for fun. Still have all that stuff and I pull it out once in a while. The last play I worked on needed to have a telephone that had a scream for a ringtone, and that scream needed to stop when the phone was picked up: Grab the box with the soldering stuff, the box of electronic gizmos and away I went (worked great). Same play: built a lamp out of an old railway switching relay that weighed about 30lbs which I salvaged from the local dump. Just tonight a guy told me that he really wanted that lamp. When the store bought baby gate was not effective keeping the great dane puppy and the toddler out of the kitchen I decided to build a Dutch door instead. Craftsman style to match the house. What an opportunity to purchase a biscuit joiner. Worked great. CNC router? Picked one up a couple of years ago, made some custom cribbage boards which were given to the local pub, custom power distribution pack built into an old briefcase and other little projects. Black and white photography; done that. Juggling; check. Kites? Made hundreds, sold none. I could go on and on. The point being: I like to make stuff. I like to create. I like to inspire. I enjoy the process as much if not more than the finished product. The right tool makes this even more fun, although I do appreciate making do with what you have. I appreciate a sharp chisel or a spoke shave as much as my cnc router.

The accuracy, repeatability and versatility of CNC is what excites me. A laser cutter/engraver will not be "the new tool", it will be another tool. And for me this will also be my new toy and I WILL use it for my own entertainment, just as I entertain myself with chisels and routers. I never imagined my oscillating spindle sander would get so much use. Did I need a spindle sander? No. Do I enjoy using it? Absolutely. I use it all the time for all sorts of things I never imagined. I am hoping the laser machine will be just as fun and just as versatile.

Do I need a big work table? Probably not. Like I said, a smaller machine would be lots of fun. But I would hate to spend the cash and the wait and later come up with a project that doesn't fit on the smaller table. As mentioned by others, the price point between sizes is similar, and I am lucky enough to have the space (meaning that my basement workshop will be no more cluttered than it is now). As for power: I would like to be able to cut thicker materials whilst still being able to cut paper or cardstock. This is likely the sticky balance point. 80W seems to be a popular sweet spot, and this also seems to be readily available on standard models available. But, would it hurt to get a 100w machine? 130w? Too much?

I am aiming to spend less than 5K, and so far the wife is supportive. I am totally willing and excited to tinker with it to get it up to good working condition.

Couldn't this machine be my little mid-life crisis? Couldn't this be my little red sports car?

Scott

[Wilbur Harris]

This turns out to be fairly simple. Measure the space available (consider exhaust), and talk to the sales folks at Shenhui, Gweike, etc.... Get the largest machine you have space for, 60/80 watts, with an electric/movable bed. Do a little research and have a company that knows what to do handle the shipment for you. You may consider how you're gonna get the darn thing from the crate to where it goes. I didn't do that and it almost cost me a bunch.

If you've got enough money...buy a Trotec.

[Scott Cowell]

Wilbur,
As it turns out, I have a strapping teenage boy with lots of moose-sized friends. The move might cost me a couple of pizzas and some soda. - Humor aside, sheer size and weight has also been a consideration. I am not and have never been called "stocky" - scrawny, perhaps. During my bachelor days I have lifted and moved all sorts of things by myself that I had no business lifting and moving. Now that I am creeping up on 50 I am a lot more protective of my back and limbs. I am assuming that heavy duty wheeled dollies, straps and multiple bodies will be involved.

[David Somers]

Good Morning Scott!

Sounds like you are person after my own heart in terms of what you enjoy doing. I like to play and learn about things and will also learn how to do something for the joy of learning it when I have no real need to know. I just like to know.

Anyway.....I think with what you are describing an 80 Watt tube might be best. Perhaps some of the other generalists can pipe in as well. At 80 Watts you can still reduce the power level and up the speed to get very good delicate and controllable engraving, while still having the power to be able to cut through anything you have described at a good clip. Check with Dalton Sheldrake on the forum as well and ask if he still feels the same way about power and about choosing between an EFR tube and a Reci tube. (they are brands, not types of tubes) And perhaps he can suggest a model to shoot for. I did not pay a penny more when I asked for the EFR tube so it should have little to no difference in your cost.

Direct from China, You will be well under $5000 for your machine, even at the larger bed size, including Customs and Shipping unless prices have changed drastically in the last year. For my 900x600 80 watt machine I paid about $3600 USD including tons of spare chains and belts and mirrors and whatnot, though I did not ask for a spare tube. Also a blower, CW5000 chiller, air assist pump, a deep Z height capability, etc, two focal length lenses with a dedicated tube for each, and spare lenses of each. And the $3600 include Shipping FOB from the factory to the port of Shanghai where I became responsible for shipping with the help of my broker in Seattle. Ocean Shipping to Seattle ran about $300 from Shanghai, transport from the port to my house was about $150. And the total bill for shipping from Shanghai (the rest of the charge was all US Customs charges of various amounts) came to a total of about $1000. The shipping, transport and Customs charges all included the CNC as well BTW. So you should easily be able to keep things under $5000 including delivery and Customs, even if you wanted the larger bed than I got.

One thing with the larger bed. I have been told, and a bit of digging seems to confirm, that at least in our area (Seattle) resale on this type of machine is a bit better if it is the 4 foot x 3 foot bed as opposed to my 3ft x 2ft (900 x 600mm). Not hugely better, but enough that for the small extra cost I would have done the larger bed if space was not a concern for me. I have easy access to the garage to get the unit inside by myself so that was not the issue for me that it will be for you.

If you do not need a machine with the kind of deep Z height I have you can probably make arrangements for one that will break into two pieces to make getting it into a below house basement with stairs easier. Ray Scott at Rabbit USA gets that type of machine in for just this situation. The difference is the construction of the case and the location of the table motor and chain drive. The lower part is basically a detachable base with nothing in it, while all the guts are contained in the upper case.

Also, depending on what you are looking for in size, ask for pass through doors on the laser, front and rear. On my machine, with a 3 foot wide table, I can run anything through it as long as the material is under 3foot wide. I simply go in roughly 2 foot increments....cut or engrave, and then slide it forward using some registration marks to maintain alignment. That might make a difference to you in terms of how big a machine you actually want or need. The pass through doors on my machine are about 3" tall. But if you needed something taller you should be able to ask for it.

And please please dont consider a K40 style machine. From what I see on other forums they are garbage overall. A few work fine, but the bulk are a big hassle.

Hope that helps!

Dave

[Bill George]

I don't think he will find a decent 80 watt machine for $5K or under today. I can testify all those stupid things you did when younger, come back to haunt you when you get age 60 and over.

[Keith Winter]

Agreed Bill. I think he's going to be closer to $7.5k on a very small machine or $10k on a mid-large machine 80w all in, including electrical and shipping, customs, and cost of installation.

OP you can of coarse do it for less, but china's NOT like the USA. When you think you're getting a "deal" that's chinese for we took out stuff that you really need to make it fit your budget. Those guys in China can cut more corners than you can dream of.

[Scott Cowell]

David,

Thanks for the encouragement and sage advice. Pass through doors, an adequate chiller and a deep Z are on my must have list. A motorized "up/down table" as they say is nearly a must have, but probably not a deal breaker if everything else is right. - A rotary is on the wish list and I imagine this will be cheaper if in "the package" than if purchased later.

I understand that the big, honkin' external fans that come with many of these are loud and actually eat more power than the rest of the pieces combined. Since I have a couple of blowers lying around already, maybe they will swap a rotary for this. Never hurts to ask.

I am past any consideration of a k40 style machine. Although this whole adventure started with considering purchasing one of those $1500 chinese 50w Ebay machines, knowing that it was actually around 35w and needed a thorough overhaul and around $600 worth of modifications to make it a usable machine. Kinda like the guy who buys an old yard sale mini bike and brings it back to life. Again, the process would have been fun as well as frustrating and the adventure would be in seeing how clever I could be solving some of the routine problems inherent in that machine. I still love to check in on RDWorks Learning Lab on youtube. - Heck, I jumped right past the cheap 40w just to avoid MoshiDraw.

And, if you were pleased with your import broker could you give me his contact info? I'm in Raymond, WA - not that much farther when coming from China...

Scott.

[Scott Cowell]

One more thought: What are the opinions of 110v vs. 220v. machines? I had already planned get a 220v outlet wired in for a different piece of equipment, so this is not an obstacle for me.

Scott.

[David Somers]

Scott,

Here is the info on my importer. Janiece was the person I worked with, but they have a number of people in the office and they all seemed good. If they want to use my information to help with your purchase that might help them out since the machines will be nearly identical except perhaps for size.
Janiece Guinn
Ocean Import Manager
Airport Brokers Corporation
17730 Ambaum BLVD S.
Seattle, WA. 98148
Tel206) 246-6580 | Fax (206) 242-7410
janiece@airportbrokers.com | www.airportbrokers.com

Then, on your question about 110V versus 220. I prefer 220V for stuff like this. One thing to remember is that in China their native power at the wall is 220. (but if you looked at their wall plugs they would either resemble the various flavors of 110 we use here or be the two prong round pin type of plug which is confusing. They often have no ground). If you buy 110 from them what they usually do is provide a 110 to 220V transformer so why not just go direct to 220. Also, because their native power is 220 they have no restrictions about a 220 circuit having to be dedicated to one device. They hang a gazillion things off their 220 volt outlets like we tend to do on 110. Here we are supposed to have a dedicated circuit for each 220V device. If you bought the full kit from China you will likely end up with a 220V laser that has its own power cord and it will likely look like our 3 prong 110V plugs on the wall end and the type of plug we use on computer power supplies for the other. Plus it will have a second 220V plug to the wall that is used for the various things they hang on the laser. And they also tend to split the laser between the tube and its controller on one 220V outlet, and the table and other connected devices on the other 220V outlets. So at minimum you will need two 220V circuits. Since I was running my own wire I figured just pull a dedicated circuit for each device. It is as easy to pull a bundle of romex as it is to pull one or two. So I have dedicated circuits for....my laser, its secondary 220V plug, the blower they provided which is 220, and the CW5000 Chiller which was also 220V. And my CNC. And my wood lathe. Fortunately I had plenty of room in my circuit panel. I use the plugs they provide on the laser to support the water pump and the air pump, which are also each 220. I figure they draw relatively little even on startup so plugging them into the secondary connections on the laser was fine. Also, be sure they provide you with connections on all these devices that match what they will plug into. If you will do your own dedicated 220V circuits for the laser and its secondary and the blower you have control over the plugs and can swap them out so they meet our code. But.....the plugs on the back of my laser that were designed for their other devices like the air and water pump were those odd little 2 prong round pin plugs. And there are two types of those in the world and they are hard to tell apart by sight. So make sure they have the correct plugs on them to fit into the laser if that is where you intend to power them from. You mentioned having some extra blowers so I am sure they will be happy to drop the blower from the order. At least with the company I worked with they were very accomodating. BTW. The rotary ran me $165. It weighs a ton so including it in your crate will save some shipping. Your shipping charges are based more on volume than weight so toss everything into the crate you can in this one order. I don't see the blower price listed separately. Hard to believe it is much money though.

And, in the interest of extreme overkill my garage and house are on a whole house surge surppressor. AND, I have a 220V voltage regulator that covers my laser and CNC. OK everyone....you can guffaw now!

It will come with a 50mm lens and tube. Be sure to order at least one extra 50mm lens, they are cheap, plus any other lenses you want. A lens tube is about $35 so if you order additional size lenses you might splurge and order a dedicated tube for each. That way you dont have to disassemble the lens tube any time you want to change. For the most part I only use the 50mm. But it seems like when I do use one of the other size lenses suddenly I find all sorts of uses for them and swap alot for a short while. Then it stops and I am back to the 50mm for a long while. Also order an extra mirror set. Spare belts are cheap. Pack them airtight once you get them. And that EFR 80 watt tube wont cost you any more than a RECI tube. Just ask folks here what the best EFR 80 watt model is currently. I know Dave Sheldrake keeps close tabs on them.

I will PM you my contact info if you have any questions.

And by all means everyone else....dont let my babbling at Scott stop you from saying stuff. This is all just based on my experiences and he will benefit from everyone's thoughts!

Dave

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

The 220 volt power used in other parts of the world is wired differently than here in the US. As Dave says, it will work in the US. In basic terms we use a 4 wire 220 over here (2 hots, neutral and safety ground) and in other parts of the world it's a 3 wire 220 (1 hot, neutral and ground though in many places there is no safety ground). Most of the laser psu I've shopped operate dual voltage. The original that was in my FSL was auto sensing and the spare I bought after I had to replace the over current limiter in the original is as well. The motor and electronic supplies are switchable 120/240. I run the machine on a dedicated 20 amp, with the machine, chiller, small compressor and exhaust if I fire up a heat gun or shop vac on the same circuit it will trip. I've got 100 amp 220 in the shop for the 60 gal compressor and welding/plasma area to use. If you've got shop air you can use that if you dry or at least filter it. I didn't want to run another drop to that corner of the shop so I'm using the small compressor going on two years now.

You'll be able to import a capable machine for around US$5k all in, perhaps a bit more. Make sure you use a known quantity on the other side. These are the same people that Rabbit or FSL import from and with a bit of guidance you'll be OK. That said, I spent the extra money and went with FSL mostly because they were here in town and I could pick it up in a few days. I paid about US$10k for an 80 watt 24x18. I wanted local support and parts though the parts are a gouge and the same from Shenzhen are about 20% of the price. The biggest thing for me was the software and controller. I'm not fond of most of the import packages. I came from primarily ULS but with some Epilog and Trotec and Retina Engrave seemed like a good compromise.

[Scott Cowell]

I can appreciate the quality and service of Snap-on Tools and their roaming customer service trucks. I don't use any of my tools enough to warrant Snap-on. When I buy a tool from Harbor Freight, I have a different level of expectations. And if it is important I do a little research, checking reviews before buying from Harbor Freight. -- I appreciate the quality and service of US made lasers, and I try to spend my money locally as much as possible. For my intended use I can't justify the cost. But I still want to play, so, Chinese laser it is. Expectations adjusted.

When I was young and single I sought adventure. Now that I have a wife, kids and house payments; I seek "uneventful". - That is why I am here and why I appreciate all of the advice.

I had planned a new 220 circuit and a new 110 circuit to that corner of the basement already. Maybe I will double that. I have lots of space on the panel. Easier and cheaper to do it all at once. I don't tend to use many tools or appliances at once. Most of my woodworking is: pull out and set up the tool, plug it in, use it, put it away so I can grab the next tool, repeat. I do lots of plugging/unplugging. I even unplug my table saw, drill press, tiny bandsaw etc when not in use even though they stay in place - due to our rural, occasionally dodgy power. Lights sometimes flicker during storms around here, and I fear brown-outs more than spikes. I had a drill press whose motor got fried when not in use several years back. Now I unplug. - Whatever the voltage of system that arrives, I will likely unplug the package when not in use.

Thanks for the broker information. That puts me miles ahead in that department. My wife still likes the idea of renting a U-haul and picking it up at the port/airport. I like the idea of it being delivered to the garage door. I have shown pictures, but I don't think she realizes how bloody big and heavy this crate might be. I do lots of stuff myself. There are times when I am happy to pay someone else to do things for me, especially if THAT is what they do routinely. And really, outside of having a few great stories, how much personal enrichment am I going to get out of fighting with Customs and pulling a rented trailer? I like the Broker idea.

Scott.

[David Somers]

Scott,

If you do end up renting a truck to haul it look for a liftgate with the weight capacity for that puppy. It is going to be very heavy. The port should be able to forklift it onto the truck for you. But a lift gate will make life much easier back at your house.
Also....if you look back through the forum a few years you will find some posts from someone who got a big honking Chinese laser in and then was delayed getting it into his workshop. It ended up being out in the rain for quite a while till he was finished with the work inside that was needed to accomodate it. No harm done to the unit. It will be wrapped in plastic inside the crater and is pretty safe from weather for a while. If you have to roll it a long way you can always ask for bigger casters. Easy enough for them to do it as the machine is assembled.

I certainly agree with you about the Chinese machines. While I would have loved having a Trotec or an Epi or a ULS there was no way I could justify that kind of money for my uses. And the US companies that provide carefully checked Chinese Lasers like Rabbit Laser USA are superb in what they provide both for the machine and the service, but again the cost there was just way too high compared to the direct from China approach. And I was very careful to vet the company and salesperson I worked with, and made sure I was in no rush and could handle delays and issues without harm. And for that I got a solid machine for a good price that is doing what I ask of it and is working well within my expectations. If I were a production shop it would be another story. But for my uses I now have a solid machine at a cost I could handle and justify to my wife.

If you are running 220, consider running an extra beyond what you need. As you said, it costs less to do it in one effort than doing it as repeated trips and then you are set for growth later on if needed. In my office our folks in charge of designing and speccing building remodels ALWAYS under specced electric outlets and network connections. It was a constant battle. And in every case we were able to show them how the "extra service points" we were asking for but didnt get ended up being provided llater through an outside contract at great cost, where it would have cost of fraction to provide it when the walls were open and running that stuff is easy. Drove me crazy. So I tend to load up on circuits and wiring when I am doing it. Just a thought. I did my own 220 work so it was easy for me to pull whatever I wanted. Not quite as simple when you are paying a licensed electrician to do it by the hour. (one thought....any way your electrician would let you run the actual wire and he terminates it for you? Would save you paying him for crawling about under the house yanking cable. And.....any thought given to pulling some Cat 5 or 6 or better wire for direct ethernet into the garage while you are hauling wire around?)

[Kev Williams]

My machine is 220v, but for the first few months I ran it from a 110-220v transformer. It lost a relay and quit working so I just wired up a double 220 outlet and everything's worked great ever since. The machine has 3 of it's own extension outlets, so all the accessories just plug into the machine, only one 220 circuit needed.

[Scott Cowell]

David,

Luckily, I am not afraid of pulling wires, and though I am not afraid of the breaker box, my comfort level decreases dramatically once I have to pull that cover. I spent a few seasons remodeling homes long ago and we occasionally did our own wiring. But I will happily pay the expert, small business guy to do the final terminations (and check my work). - Also in my favor is that the basement is unfinished and I plan to surface mount some steel boxes onto a big stout beam. I already have most of the supplies. Now I will just do a couple more dedicated circuits.

I think I have narrowed down my wish list:
1390 cabinet style 80w cutter/engraver
blade style workbed
additional honeycomb
motorized up/down Z
pass through doors
air assist
water chiller
rotary attachment
extra set of mirrors
extra 38mm/1.5" lens and tube/holder
and, if the budget allows, a spare tube.

Have I missed anything? I figure this could keep me entertained for the next year or so.

Oh, yeah. Bigger casters. Great idea!

[Bert Kemp]

I would not get a spare tube, tubes are warranted from the date of maufacture and they also tend to lose gas while sitting on a shelve. So if your spare tube sits in your basement for 2 years before you need it , its already out of warranty and could be dead on the shelve to boot.

David,

Luckily, I am not afraid of pulling wires, and though I am not afraid of the breaker box, my comfort level decreases dramatically once I have to pull that cover. I spent a few seasons remodeling homes long ago and we occasionally did our own wiring. But I will happily pay the expert, small business guy to do the final terminations (and check my work). - Also in my favor is that the basement is unfinished and I plan to surface mount some steel boxes onto a big stout beam. I already have most of the supplies. Now I will just do a couple more dedicated circuits.

I think I have narrowed down my wish list:
1390 cabinet style 80w cutter/engraver
blade style workbed
additional honeycomb
motorized up/down Z
pass through doors
air assist
water chiller
rotary attachment
extra set of mirrors
extra 38mm/1.5" lens and tube/holder
and, if the budget allows, a spare tube.

Have I missed anything? I figure this could keep me entertained for the next year or so.

Oh, yeah. Bigger casters. Great idea!