XB-1060 laser engraver purchase - disapointing so far...

[Kev Williams]

Why is it, as many times as the cautions about eBay laser purchases here, the bulk of the "I need help with ...." posts involve eBay machines?

Because people want the toy first, THEN they search for help when the toy don't work ...

I would bet most people who actually read these pages first before buying a laser DON'T buy from ebay.

.... most people...

FWIW-- these pages kept me from buying an FS laser...

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

Do not be mislead by ebay feedback numbers. Look at the items they have feedback on. Most of the time when
I check out a seller of a high dollar item, several thousand dollars, I find the feedback is from sub $10 items. It's
just a way to run up their feedback.

It's not an elaborate scheme to run up feedback numbers. I've sold several thousand items well into six figures total on ebay. Only about 1/3 of my customers leave feedback. There are tools where you can badger your buyers to leave feedback though I don't use those. Probably half or better of my transactions are with new or non regular ebay members who don't really know how to use their accounts. Rather than, or in addition to the feedback look at the star ratings. Even then it's a crap shoot in many cases where they don't have a great deal of feedback.

Bill that will be largely to do with people looking at the ticket price rather than doing a bit of research. Given how easy it is to google info these days I am surprised it still happens but I guess it is in human nature to want a bargain

Shoppers on ebay or Amazon are price driven. They either have limited funds or don't want to spend what is necessary for a capable tool. My flagship parts in the last several months has gone from complete kits to replacement parts for the import kits. They buy cheap then pay for it in the long run. I see this not only in 3D printers but lasers, particularly K40s but also in other tools including welders, mini lathes and the like. What many don't realize is these are machine tools, not appliances. While many have issues with quality, they don't have the mechanical aptitude or experience to use a tool like this and between the learning curve (even with the best of tools) and the quality of the equipment it amplifies the problem. In the case of woodworking we're talking about people that come from a saw/drill/router background and now they need to know a graphics program, understand how the mechanics of the machine work and get familiar with how different settings work on the machine and it's entirely new process that stumps many people.

[Doug Hoffman]

What I meant was there are so-called dealers of lasers, electronics, and even cars, that have never even sold 1 of the
high priced items they have listed. They sell cheap key chains, matchbox cars and such. They go on in their listings on
how they back their machines, but in several years have never sold a machine, through ebay anyway. There are tons
of these dealers. If you sell cheap items, and have good feedback numbers, that's fine. I still would not buy a several
thousand dollar item from an unknown seller with 100,000 positive feedbacks, and none over 10% of the price of the
item I am looking for.
By the way I have bought and sold on ebay since 1997. I have a 100% feedback with over 12500 sales. My items
range from $15 to $17000. I do research on anything I buy off of ebay. I check out the seller, as well as the product
they are selling. I hope my buyers will do the same! I stand behind my items, and often give free gifts that I don't
even mention in my listings.

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

I agree but I wouldn't buy a several thousand dollar item from ebay. At all. I shy away from those trading houses in So Cal or the Bay area as well. They're basically digital swap meet dealers. There are electronic components dealers that are the same. My favorite purchases are higher end hand tools.

You can't fix stupid for some of those folks and buying on price alone, particularly without knowing much about the product from someone without a track record are going to get what they are going to get. Dealing direct is it's own can of worms but I've found most over there offer as good and in some cases better service than what I can get over here.

Getting on ebay in 97 is pretty impressive considering ebay didn't become ebay until late 97. I didn't get on until mid 99.

[Bill George]

I was buying and selling online before eBay. Places like Classifieds 2000, was that the name?

[Scott Cowell]

Glad to hear all of the input. -
Yes, I will admit I chose the ebay route because of the immediate gratification allure. Promises of 2 week delivery from a US warehouse (all lies). I also wanted some sort of middleman protection (ebay and paypal). This part worked somewhat, as I did get a refund promptly. That said, I am now looking at importing direct.

The upside is that it appears that I can either get a comparable machine (not the XB1060, thanks Dave) for less money, or get a bigger, meaner machine for the same money. I am leaning towards the latter, as I have already emotionally spent the money.

Now I am shopping for a 1390 sized, cabinet style machine. I too have noticed that MANY of the machined offered by different manufacturers seem to have the same cabinet in different colors, same control panel, and similar specs. I have been checking Alibaba, Aliexpress, and contacting companies directly. Will check into Tabao (thanks to the other Dave).

Honestly, this is for hobby use, not thriving business. Sure, I will want to peddle things to support the habit and make me feel as if the machine could pay for itself, but this will mainly be for fun. Building theater props, cosplay stuff for the daughters, holiday gifts and decorations, cool light fixtures, occasional edge-lit signs, tesselated tiles, etched mirrors and anything else that might please the Mama.

100w is probably plenty for me, but I have seen some 130w models cutting thin sheet metal. Cutting thicker materials and possibly cutting thin metal looks attractive and more versatile. But, I still want to cut paper (custom cards, decorations, etc). Any drawbacks to a more powerful tube?

For those that have such machines: any advice?
Scott.

[David Somers]

Hey Scott!!

Dave Sheldrake has tons of experience with these machines and can give you a bunch of information.

My experience is solely with my machine from the company in my signature. It is an 80 watt, 900x600 machine with a deep Z height. I am very pleased with it and the company I worked with. My sales person was Blanca Yan if you check them out. I chose 80 watt as being in the sweet spot between solid cutting capability and very good engraving capability. Higher power tubes tend to not be able to run at the lower powers used to engrave and cut fine materials. I chose the 900x600 size because of my space available. There was almost no price difference between 900x600 and the same power in a 1200x900 or even the next size up. But if I went up in size I was going to have to operate the laser while suspended from the ceiling ala Mission Impossible movies.

Anyway....have been happy with the unit I bought and the company I bought from and the sales person I worked with.

Having said that, don't forget about Rabbit Laser USA and perhaps Boss laser. Pretty much the same machines as the direct Chinese sales but they are here in the US and tend to be very responsive to customer needs. Especially Ray Scott and crew at Rabbit. I know less about Boss.

[Kev Williams]

a 1390 machine is huge- mine is 75" long, 58" deep, and 43" tall. Crated weight was 1118 pounds- thankfully it rolls easy!

It has an 80 watt RECI peak tested power was 110 watts. I read somewhere that RECI tests peak power at 32mV, which works but is way above normal operating range. It bothers me that some of these '60 watt' lasers sold on ebay, like one pictured by another poster a few days ago, showed a 60 watt peak rating right on the tube. That mean realistically, it's a 40 watt machine.

I chose 80 watts because most of my work is raster engraving, and I engrave black Romark at 13% power- much less than that and the laser won't fire consistently- or so I hear -- I've run mine at 7% for long stretches and never noticed any misfires.

80 watts will melt glass, and it will discolor metal, but won't cut it.

For what it's worth, my Triumph is set up to run 2 tubes simultaneously. Of course this cuts the 1300 X range in half, but would still allow you to cut duplicate parts from 35 x 25" blanks. Another option with 2 tubes would be to run the second lens head right against the first, which would only cost about 150mm of X space- the idea here, and I've thought of doing this, is to add a 130w second tube, not to run simultaneously, but just to have the 2 power options. But since I don't do much cutting, I don't need 130 watts, and much of my work uses the whole table, so I'm fine as is...

[Jerome Stanek]

Remember to use a broker and there will be customs and other shipping from port to your place.

[Keith Winter]

Glad to hear all of the input. -
Yes, I will admit I chose the ebay route because of the immediate gratification allure. Promises of 2 week delivery from a US warehouse (all lies). I also wanted some sort of middleman protection (ebay and paypal). This part worked somewhat, as I did get a refund promptly. That said, I am now looking at importing direct.

The upside is that it appears that I can either get a comparable machine (not the XB1060, thanks Dave) for less money, or get a bigger, meaner machine for the same money. I am leaning towards the latter, as I have already emotionally spent the money.

Now I am shopping for a 1390 sized, cabinet style machine. I too have noticed that MANY of the machined offered by different manufacturers seem to have the same cabinet in different colors, same control panel, and similar specs. I have been checking Alibaba, Aliexpress, and contacting companies directly. Will check into Tabao (thanks to the other Dave).

Honestly, this is for hobby use, not thriving business. Sure, I will want to peddle things to support the habit and make me feel as if the machine could pay for itself, but this will mainly be for fun. Building theater props, cosplay stuff for the daughters, holiday gifts and decorations, cool light fixtures, occasional edge-lit signs, tesselated tiles, etched mirrors and anything else that might please the Mama.

100w is probably plenty for me, but I have seen some 130w models cutting thin sheet metal. Cutting thicker materials and possibly cutting thin metal looks attractive and more versatile. But, I still want to cut paper (custom cards, decorations, etc). Any drawbacks to a more powerful tube?

For those that have such machines: any advice?
Scott.

Cannot cut metal w 130w wo oxygen assist.

I would STRONGLY suggest you read all of the forum posts you can before buying anything. You comment about cutting sheet metal combined with your initial decision leads me to believe you've read some but not nearly enough to make a fully educated decision. Educate yourself by reading before buying.

You escaped a bad decision once.... If you direct import there will be no second escape if you fail to research and get something that doesn't fit your needs.

[Scott Cowell]

I know it has been said before, but you guys are great. It is nice to get encouragement and advice as well as the gentle scolding when needed.

As for cutting metals, it sounds like a neat option, but oxygen assist (though not scary) is more than I want to play with as a newbie. I anticipate enough of a learning curve and tinkering time. This was not in my original wish list anyhow.

I still like the idea of a larger work table; so much more potential. But so much more footprint! Don't want others to think I am compensating for anything... I easily have a 45" doorway to my basement workspace that can be significantly enlarged and repaired with a little carpentry (they used to park an ambulance in my basement) - and recently cleared enough space for a "dumpster" as Kev calls it. (Kev, it warms my heart to see others with tight, cluttered workspaces).

As for tube power, if I do opt for a 100w or 130w, will a faster travel/engraving/cutting speed help with engraving or cutting delicate items without scorching? Logic says it would help. What does experience say?

Scott

[Bill George]

Like someone else said, reading is a lot faster than asking questions and waiting for an answer. The Chinese machines have limitations on speed. When you get into the higher dollar lasers or especially the Trotec machines increased power helps allows them run faster. Only if your doing a lot of engraving does that speed help. Cutting is slower no matter what the machine.
You sure don't need a $35000 machine for hobby use or one with a 100 watts of power.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Oxygen assist + Imported Chinese machine = BOMB

[David Somers]

Scott,

You have mentioned this being for hobby use? Can you give us a better idea what that is? That might help us figure out what power level might be best for you.

In the meantime.....I may be closer to a hobby user than many of us here with larger Chinese machines. I am primarily a woodturner. I retired a bit over a year ago. Eventually I would like to sell work at craft fairs and art shows and galleries and shops, maybe Etsy or something similar. A hobby business if you will. After a lot of years of working I have a reasonable annuity so I am not looking to support myself solely with the lathe or laser or CNC. But I am looking for challenges, learning, a chance to be creative in varying degrees, and offset the costs of that with the machines.

Since buying the laser and CNC I have been learning and playing, and now am developing a pile of cutting and engraving and Gcode files of things I would like to do more of later on. Building my digital stock if you will.

I chose my laser, an 80 watt 900x600 because 80 watt was the apparent sweet spot between cutting and engraving on a Chinese machine. I chose the EFR laser tube at the advice of Dave Sheldrake based on a number of quality reasons. I chose 900x600 because of size limitations in my shop. There was little difference in cost to go up to 1200x900 other than it was a honking big machine. I chose this particular machine after a lot of digging and asking questions, taking about a year of pestering everyone on this Forum and elsewhere as I learned. (and I am incredibly grateful to everyone here as I have said before <big grateful grin!!!!>) I also chose this particular machine because I could get it with a deep Z height which allowed me to work on deep items. I got a 50mm and a 127mm lens and enough spare parts to hold me till I am 112. I would have loved to have a Trotec or Epi or ULS machine, or a Rabbit USA machine, but costs put those beyond what I felt I could put into this type of use. I like my laser and the CNC, both bought from the same company and sales person. I could not have asked for more from either. Though keep in mind I am a very patient and tolerant person. <grin> I probably could have bought a K40 POS and made it through that without many murderous impulses.

I use the laser to adorn my bowls and platters. I use it for inlay and cutouts. I use it to cut bric a brac which will sell alongside my more expensive bowls and platters because we all know the higher dollar things dont normally sell enough to pay for a booth. The small less expensive stuff is what pays for the booth for the most part. Selling larger or more expensive one off items is a bonus. So the laser and the CNC tend to fill in on the small stuff and to adorn special bowls. And as befits a hobby machine....there is an endless supply of little jobs friends and folks I volunteer with would like done. So far I have had fun building up my digital stock and playing and testing things and designing what I may eventually sell. If nothing else it has kept me off the streets, for which the people of West Seattle have expressed gratitude. Or at least they should.

For materials....I will try anything but PVC. And I have yet to use it for laser tattoo removal. Otherwise I have used it to cut and engrave woods and veneers, acrylic, leather, and paper mostly. I have started playing to see what I can do with stone. I helped a neighbor who is a backyard mechanic do up some gaskets for engines he was working on. I helped friends getting married or celebrating fun events do up cards and other celebratory "stuff." I played with making toys for relative's kids. Stuff like that. I would like to play with all wood clocks and automata. Perhaps this winter when the rains begin again.

So......how does that compare with what you are thinking of? Help us out and we can give you better info on what power level you might find serves you best.

Dave

[David Somers]

Mr Sheldrake....

Somehow your BOMB statement above and your signature line go together beautifully!!!! Grin!