Rob Lee, I Need Advice

[Stew Hagerty]

Rob (others welcome as well),

Tell me what you think. I have a lot of curly maple and figured mahogany in a job coming up. And in general, I tend to work with figured woods a lot. Your BU Smoother with the 2 1/4" iron and a 50 degree total pitch (optional 62 degree available), or your Custom 4 1/2 with 55 degree frog & 2 3/8" iron? Give me pro's and con's.

Here's the deal... See if have an ECE Primus 711 Improved. It's iron is bedded at 50°. When I get it dialed in, it is fantastic! The problem is that it's a pain in the butterfly to GET set up right. I am tired of fussing with that Primus plane every time I pick it up.

Turn, try, turn, try, loosen hold down, back off, tighten hold down, turn, try, turn, try, tap to straighten blade, loosen hold down, etc, etc.

When I do get it set, I can take whispy .001" shavings off of tiger maple. But I have to spend way too much time getting it to that sweet spot. So I want a plane style I'm more familiar with and used to using. It is my only European style plane. The rest are a combination of vintage Stanley's, your LV's, and a LN Rabbet Block Plane.

[Rob Lee]

Rob (others welcome as well),

Tell me what you think. I have a lot of curly maple and figured mahogany in a job coming up. And in general, I tend to work with figured woods a lot. Your BU Smoother with the 2 1/4" iron and a 50 degree total pitch (optional 62 degree available), or your Custom 4 1/2 with 55 degree frog & 2 3/8" iron? Give me pro's and con's.

Here's the deal... See if have an ECE Primus 711 Improved. It's iron is bedded at 50°. When I get it dialed in, it is fantastic! The problem is that it's a pain in the butterfly to GET set up right. I am tired of fussing with that Primus plane every time I pick it up.

Turn, try, turn, try, loosen hold down, back off, tighten hold down, turn, try, turn, try, tap to straighten blade, loosen hold down, etc, etc.

When I do get it set, I can take whispy .001" shavings off of tiger maple. But I have to spend way too much time getting it to that sweet spot. So I want a plane style I'm more familiar with and used to using. It is my only European style plane. The rest are a combination of vintage Stanley's, your LV's, and a LN Rabbet Block Plane.

Stew -

Glad to give you my 2 cents worth.... either plane would be a good choice, so I'll highlight some of the differences.

BUS

Pro:

- low center of gravity and a wide stance

- low bed angle gives an effectively finer feed rate

- Low bed angle makes squaring the blade easier

- cut quality is controlled through effective cut angle, and sharpness

- available toothing blade

- priced lower than custom plane

Custom 4 1/2

Pro:

- customizable - pick your handle, frog, and knob

- chipbreaker (can also be used without chipbreaker)

- can be easier to sharpen blades for high angle applications (effective cut angle determined by bed angle, and bevel can remain at 30 degrees or so)

- can also shoot with this plane

I'm sure you'll hear from others on both sides. My personal choice would be the BUS for it's versatility, and ease of set-up. It really feels right to me, and it's a format I have the most experience with.

The strongest argument in favor of the custom bench plane is the ability to use the chipbreaker to mitigate tear-out. I'd recommend that you try a close chipbreaker with your vintage Stanley's first - and see if that is an approach you'd prefer.

I know - wussy fence-sitting answer.....

Hope it all helps!

Cheers -

Rob

[Mike Holbrook]

Stew, you might check out Derek's review of the new Veritas Custom planes at:http://www.inthewoodshop.com. One of the major points that I got from the article, was the veritas BU/LA planes are some of the easiest planes to set up and use. The more types of planes I try the more I appreciate how easy those planes are to use. I think the article is actually attempting to discover whether or not the new planes with the added feature of chip breakers actually provide measurable benefits over well set up other BU & BD planes. It seems to me that Derek's test reveals that, in the hands of an experienced user, willing to spend a little extra time learning how to set these planes up correctly the chip breaker may provide a smoother surface, but not one that is a great deal better.

So maybe the question you might ask yourself is whether or not you want to deal with a potentially more difficult plane to set up and use to get a slightly improved final surface. I hope I am not totally slaughtering Derek's article, maybe he will jump in as he has spent a great deal of time researching this topic.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

One of the major points that I got from the article, was the veritas BU/LA planes are some of the easiest planes to set up and use. The more types of planes I try the more I appreciate how easy those planes are to use.

Hmmm, I probably should have tried one of these at the last Columbus Wood Working show. Ignoring my block plane, I do not own one and I have never used one. I did try a couple of their planes and I liked them.... Tried lots of their stuff at the show and I ended up with a sizable order, but I did not try a BU plane.

[Glen Canaday]

Can o' worms thread.

From the Bailey crowd, I second setting up the cap iron correctly. Tearout should be zero in just about everything. If it can't quit get it even when it is set as fine as you can, a cabinet scraper will finish the job.

Personally, while I have smoothed with a bu block plane, it's only because it was smaller than anything else I had on hand at the time. It will DO it, but I am not a fan of futzing around with my bevel angles just to smooth one or two surfaces.

[Mike Holbrook]

Certainly there are pluses and minuses to any plane adjustment system. My comments were limited to the two Veritas options because those are the ones the OP mentioned. I think a good deal depends on which system a given person has spent the most time with. I have and use Stanley and wooden planes too, including Blum's excellent wood plane system. I think the BU adjustment system is the easiest to learn and easiest to use. Certainly chip breakers and BD planes offer a greater number of adjustment options to those who feel those features may benefit them.

I don't plan to use micro bevels on my BU planes, as I have a smooth, jack & jointer all of which can share blades. I have four different blades that I can rotate between the three planes without having to modify bevels. I do have a grinder with CBN wheels though so I can grind easily and quickly. I like hollow grinding plane bevels so I can resharpen them quickly and easily by hand. I am also less concerned with perfectly flat surfaces than I think the average poster is.

As in many hand tool threads, I think we should look at our entire plan for a specific type of hand tool, including sharpening, as part of our decision making process.

[Tony Wilkins]

Can o' worms thread.

From the Bailey crowd, I second setting up the cap iron correctly. Tearout should be zero in just about everything. If it can't quit get it even when it is set as fine as you can, a cabinet scraper will finish the job.

Personally, while I have smoothed with a bu block plane, it's only because it was smaller than anything else I had on hand at the time. It will DO it, but I am not a fan of futzing around with my bevel angles just to smooth one or two surfaces.

It's only a can of worms thread if someone makes it so. I found I prefer bevel down so a little is personal preference since I started out with a mix of both. As rob mentioned, there's strength and weaknesses for both.

[Chris Hachet]

Rob (others welcome as well),

Tell me what you think. I have a lot of curly maple and figured mahogany in a job coming up. And in general, I tend to work with figured woods a lot. Your BU Smoother with the 2 1/4" iron and a 50 degree total pitch (optional 62 degree available), or your Custom 4 1/2 with 55 degree frog & 2 3/8" iron? Give me pro's and con's.

Here's the deal... See if have an ECE Primus 711 Improved. It's iron is bedded at 50°. When I get it dialed in, it is fantastic! The problem is that it's a pain in the butterfly to GET set up right. I am tired of fussing with that Primus plane every time I pick it up.

Turn, try, turn, try, loosen hold down, back off, tighten hold down, turn, try, turn, try, tap to straighten blade, loosen hold down, etc, etc.

When I do get it set, I can take whispy .001" shavings off of tiger maple. But I have to spend way too much time getting it to that sweet spot. So I want a plane style I'm more familiar with and used to using. It is my only European style plane. The rest are a combination of vintage Stanley's, your LV's, and a LN Rabbet Block Plane.

In the same boat with the same plane....

[Chris Hachet]

Hmmm, I probably should have tried one of these at the last Columbus Wood Working show. Ignoring my block plane, I do not own one and I have never used one. I did try a couple of their planes and I liked them.... Tried lots of their stuff at the show and I ended up with a sizable order, but I did not try a BU plane.

I tried one last year at the Columbus wood working show, but right now my Vintage Stanleys are doing everything I ask of them....

[Gene Davis]

I've owned a 711 for a long long time, and it is the best finisher I've got. It's competition is a vintage Sweetheart #4 and a Krenov-style smoother I made that has a Hock blade. The 711 is the one that can produce whisper-thin shavings in wavy-grain wood without tearout.

[Jim Koepke]

Working mostly with western fir species a bevel down plane seems to take care of almost all my needs. My bevel up plane is used mostly on end grain.

With a bevel down plane when a patch of swirling grain causes a problem it is usually possible to change direction to against most of the grain to tackle the one tricky spot.

In my opinion, there is good reason to have both BU & BD planes in the shop.

If what is immediately available doesn't do the job in a satisfactory manner, it is time to try to figure out why. After touching all the bases as to sharpness, chip breaker and other variables, the problem is usually resolved.

jtk

[Chris Hachet]

I've owned a 711 for a long long time, and it is the best finisher I've got. It's competition is a vintage Sweetheart #4 and a Krenov-style smoother I made that has a Hock blade. The 711 is the one that can produce whisper-thin shavings in wavy-grain wood without tearout.

It is my best finisher also, and works well on smaller parts like door Styles and trim pieces better than the Stanley due to its low weight and easy maneuverability. Whisper thin shavings indeed...!

[Archie England]

Like end grain, swirly grain has the least tear out when I use a blade sharpened beyond the 6000 mark. That's when I pull out my 10k or 13K Sigma stones and spend extra time in polishing the edge. Though I have 2 wonderful BU planes (one LV; one LN), my vintage planes work just as well, so long as I have used my top end stones. IMO, my 10/13k stones really do produce better cuts on end grain and burls than when I stop at 3k to 6k. Just my experience; and, I'm a hobby woodworker, at best.

[Mike Holbrook]

I think Archie makes a great point. Sharpening techniques play into just about any kind of hand tool. This translates into considering how you are going to sharpen a tool before you buy it IMHO. I finish with Spyderco stones, but if I am dealing with tough situations I go to a piece of MDF with LV's green buffing compound on it. Another way to achieve the same results Archie does via a slightly different methodology. It seems to me that even contentious threads often end up in violent agreement.

[Stew Hagerty]

Stew -

Glad to give you my 2 cents worth.... either plane would be a good choice, so I'll highlight some of the differences.

BUS

Pro:

- low center of gravity and a wide stance

- low bed angle gives an effectively finer feed rate

- Low bed angle makes squaring the blade easier

- cut quality is controlled through effective cut angle, and sharpness

- available toothing blade

- priced lower than custom plane

Custom 4 1/2

Pro:

- customizable - pick your handle, frog, and knob

- chipbreaker (can also be used without chipbreaker)

- can be easier to sharpen blades for high angle applications (effective cut angle determined by bed angle, and bevel can remain at 30 degrees or so)

- can also shoot with this plane

I'm sure you'll hear from others on both sides. My personal choice would be the BUS for it's versatility, and ease of set-up. It really feels right to me, and it's a format I have the most experience with.

The strongest argument in favor of the custom bench plane is the ability to use the chipbreaker to mitigate tear-out. I'd recommend that you try a close chipbreaker with your vintage Stanley's first - and see if that is an approach you'd prefer.

I know - wussy fence-sitting answer.....

Hope it all helps!

Cheers -

Rob

Rob,

Thank you for chiming in. I have your new Shooting Plane so that is not an issue. I currently set my chipbreakers using the feeler gauge method, and I have a PM-V11 blade & chipbreaker in my vintage #4. It's great, but on tiger & birdseye maples I still get more tearout than I want. When I do eventually get my Primus 711 set perfectly, I can get almost zero tearout on even the wildest grain (a burl was the only thing it ever failed me on, but then... it was a burl. RAS time). I want a plane that will do that without spending waaaay too much time fussing with setting the plane up.

Between your BU Smoother and a Custom with a 55 degree frog, which one would you recommend for this specific type of application?

Like I said, I have a project coming up made mostly with tiger maple (it's curly maple, but it has so much figure that I wanted to qualify my terminology). And the rest is figured Honduran mahogany. I've had the 711 for several years, and I'm just getting tired of fussing with it.

Oh, and should you recommend the Custom, my next question is going to be, is a 4 1/2" with a 55 degree frog going to be insanely hard to push? Or, should I be considering a 4 instead?