Kiyotada Chisel Pics 1/5 Oire & Mukomachi Chisel Sets

[Kees Heiden]

To be a little bit more exact: Yes, increased hardness increases the abrasion resistance of a steel, as long as we talk about the same composition of the steel! Adding a lot of chromium to a steel increases the abrasion resistance, without neccessarily increasing the hardness.

Why do we harden tool steel:
- To make the steel more resistant against deformation. You don't want the edge of a chisel to bent over on a hard wood.
- To increase the abrasion resistance, especially usefull for plane irons for example.

Higher hardness usually leads to less toughness: The edge chips out more easilly. How the Japanese smiths manage very high hardness combined with still very reasonable touchness is their secret. Something to do with their choice of steel, the heat treatment resulting in a very fine grain structure, and probably the lamination construction plays a role too.

And 1095 is not really similar to Japanes white paper steel. The white paper steel is a very simple steel, but has a rather high carbon content in the range of 1.3%. 1095 is also a simple steel but it has a lower carbon content around 1% and it has about 0.3% manganese to help against the bad influence of phosphorus or sulphur contamination (not quite sure now which one...) and it helps a bit with heat treating.

[Jessica de Boer]

Do you have any trouble sharpening those super hard white steel #1 chisels on natural stones? About what Rockwell Hardness would you put them at?

According to Stan Covington they are 66-67 rockwell hardness, I believe that is about as hard as they can make white steel. They sharpen very nicely on my natural finishing stone. My friend who gave me stone suggested I get a small Atoma 400, they make one that is 1/4 the size of the normal Atoma, to make a slurry as this speeds up the sharpening and adds some lubrication. I followed his advice and it does indeed make sharpening easier.

[Jessica de Boer]

I have oire and atsu nomis made by Stan's blacksmith.

A small correction. I learned my atsu nomis are not made by Stan's blacksmith but by a blacksmith called Yoshio Usui. He also produces for jindaiko-honpo. They are every bit as good as my oire nomis which are made by Stan's blacksmith. If someone hadn't told me about my atsu nomis I would never even have suspected they were made by another blacksmith.

[Warren Mickley]

According to Stan Covington they are 66-67 rockwell hardness, I believe that is about as hard as they can make white steel.

Are you suggesting that these chisels were not tempered at all?

[Brian Holcombe]

Warren, they’re likely tempered at 100 degrees Celsius which is the least amount of temper I’m aware of. It was advertised by Kiyohisa under his Kamon line of tools. Not the same as Kiyotada but worth noting because it is advertised so specifically and geared to fit the same niche as Kiyotada.

[Dom Campbell]

A small correction. I learned my atsu nomis are not made by Stan's blacksmith but by a blacksmith called Yoshio Usui. He also produces for jindaiko-honpo. They are every bit as good as my oire nomis which are made by Stan's blacksmith. If someone hadn't told me about my atsu nomis I would never even have suspected they were made by another blacksmith.

Yohsio Usui also makes/oversees the Sukemaru brand chisels, and is very well known. They also make HSS chisels, but I don't have any experience of those, but the thought alone of sharpening them gives me the creeps.

I have some Mukoumachi Nomi from Stan's blacksmith, and Tataki (Atsu) Nomi from Usui/Sukemaru, and I can confirm what you say... I doubt you can get much better quality at any price point.

[Jessica de Boer]

Warren, they’re likely tempered at 100 degrees Celsius which is the least amount of temper I’m aware of.

Stan did indeed mention they were tempered at very low temperature, just enough to relieve the stress in the steel.

I have some Mukoumachi Nomi from Stan's blacksmith, and Tataki (Atsu) Nomi from Usui/Sukemaru, and I can confirm what you say... I doubt you can get much better quality at any price point.

Considering the fact that my oire nomis from Stan's blacksmith and my atsu nomis form Yoshio Usui are on par with my father's Ichihiro's (who in turn was a peer of Kiyotada and Nagahiro) I would say you are correct. I doubt you will find anything better regardless of the price. I actually think my atsu nomis are a smidgeon better than Ichihiro. I feel they are a little bit tougher.

[Noah Magnuson]

Just to add to the discussion and give a comparison to quality western counterparts. I have quite a few nomis (oire, mukomachinomi, and mentori usunomi) from Stan's blacksmith(s). They sharpen easier than my PM-V11 chisels and have a notably finer edge in my experience -- not that the Veritas chisels are lacking. They (PM-V11) will almost certainly take a bit more abuse.

[Jessica de Boer]

I read a review once by a Derek somethingsomething and he tested a bunch of chisels, a Koyamaichi white steel chisel, Veritas, an A2 chisel and a Stanley. He used them on some kind of hard Australian wood if I remember correctly and the Koyamaichi lasted the longest.

[Noah Magnuson]

I read a review once by a Derek somethingsomething and he tested a bunch of chisels, a Koyamaichi white steel chisel, Veritas, an A2 chisel and a Stanley. He used them on some kind of hard Australian wood if I remember correctly and the Koyamaichi lasted the longest.

Just to be clear, if you were referencing my 'abuse' comment, it was not with respect to edge retention, which one would expect WS to win, but real abuse like prying/twisting etc. (poor technique). It may not be the case, but the white steel edge should be a bit 'more' brittle. If you drove them both "too deep" and pried, I suspect the PM comes out with less edge damage -- though I am not testing this theory.

[Warren Mickley]

I read a review once by a Derek somethingsomething and he tested a bunch of chisels, a Koyamaichi white steel chisel, Veritas, an A2 chisel and a Stanley. He used them on some kind of hard Australian wood if I remember correctly and the Koyamaichi lasted the longest.

I read Derek's review and replicated the tests with my own chisels using jarrah, Derek's beloved Australian hardwood. All of my chisels gave better results than all of Derek's chisels. They did much more work and were still sharper.

The trouble with this type of testing is that it is very much dependent on the skill and technique of the tester. It is extremely difficult to separate out what results come from the tool and what comes from the user. A beginner can mangle an edge in seconds. The fastest technique is generally the least abusive.

I use 19th century English chisels, and I prefer stuff from early in the century. They are highly tempered so they sharpen very quickly. I finish the chisels on Arkansas stones

[Derek Cohen]

Warren, firstly, I am not a beginner. But even if I were, what is more relevant than technique - when testing chisel steel - is that the method used remains consistent for all testing. That is the scientific method.

Secondly, within this frame, the results you achieved are irrelevant. You were not using the same piece of wood I used for all chisels, and you were not using the same method I used for each of the chisels. You only used a single chisel. There was no comparison made between chisels with the same different steel types.

I picked up the chisels to prove that the steels were different and to find out more about their edge holding. You picked up your chisels to prove that you know more than I, that your chisels are better than anything we have today (well, you are likely correct in both cases, but that does not alter my comments. This is not about your - unobtainable- chisels). I would now request that you resist the temptation to post these same comments whenever you get the chance since your critique is simply not valid.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I read a review once by a Derek somethingsomething and he tested a bunch of chisels, a Koyamaichi white steel chisel, Veritas, an A2 chisel and a Stanley. He used them on some kind of hard Australian wood if I remember correctly and the Koyamaichi lasted the longest.

Jessica, here is the article ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...sCompared.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rhys Hurcombe]

Another +1 for Stan's blacksmith. I have 5 mukomachi nomi from him that i've enjoyed using. I'd say you're not getting the level of fit and finish that you may get from other certain smiths but the steel / forge quality is at the top plus the price is hard to beat for their performance! Especially the case with mukomachi nomi, they have to be accurately made otherwise you'll be having endless troubles getting accurate mortises. I'm not talking about squaring routed mortise corners or finishing off a mortise that's been hogged out with a drill bit. A mortise purely made with the chisel. Wouldn't mind trying out an usu nomi from him, too. I have some kiku's and kiyohisas but always like trying new chisels. Might have to sell the kiyohisa's ....

[Jessica de Boer]

Wouldn't mind trying out an usu nomi from him, too.

Jindaiko-honpo has usu nomis that are made by Stan's blacksmith if you want some fairly quickly

https://www.jindaiko-honpo.jp/shop/products/detail/24

I also ordered 2 mokumachi nomis from them, these are also made by Yoshio Usui. I was going to buy a Nagahiro mokumachi nomi but the seller backed out.