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Thread: Kiyotada Chisel Pics 1/5 Oire & Mukomachi Chisel Sets

  1. #31
    What a wonderfull collection..

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley Covington View Post
    I thought it would be useful to add some more information to the thread about the blacksmith himself.

    There was a famous metallurgist from Niigata Prefecture named Kosuke Iwasaki that had a profound impact on blacksmithing throughout Japan. He probably contributed more to the scientific understanding (versus "tradition") of the chemical processes involved in formulating, forging, and heat treating tool steel by Japanese blacksmiths, and the improvement and widespread use of quality control methodology in blacksmithing thorought Japan than any single man before or since.

    What has Iwasaki got to do with Kiyotada chisels, you ask? Patience. Iwasaki wrote that the best chisel smiths in all of Japan at the time were located in Tokyo. He tested the chisels of the top 4 chisel smiths in Tokyo and proclaimed Chugoro Shimamura as the best. If Iwasaki is to be believed, that makes Shimamura the best chisel smith in Japan. Certainly a lot of Japanese craftsmen believe it. The link below is to a webpage by Mr. Suzuki who has written 5 or 6 volumes on Japanese toolmakers. Sorry its in Japanese.

    http://www.misyuku-suzuki-kanamonote...jimeijin2.html

    The blacksmith was born Chugoro Shimamura (島村忠五郎) in 1890 in Yokohama just a few blocks from my current jobsite. The name implies he was his father's fifth son. He apprenticed to a blacksmith in Nagoya at age 15 and learned to make sickles, hoes, and other such farm implements. According to Suzuki, he developed an interest in chisels, and learned how to make them without formal instruction from a master. He eventually went independent and returned to Tokyo, setting up his first forge in Hashiba in Asakusa Bashi. He relocated several times, but when I visited him, he was working in the Tsukishima area of Chuo Ward (not far from Ginza in a rather rundown residential area).

    The name he worked under was Kiyotada (清忠), combining the character Kiyo (清)meaning "pure" with the character Tada (忠) meaning "faithful." He probably took the Tada character from his own name, because the "Chu" in Chugoro can also be pronounced "Tada." 

    Allow me to digress for a minute. For many decades, Suiheiya (translated as "Level Store" as in the bubble level tool) was the largest tool store in Japan. They are probably still the largest retailer of high-quality woodworking handtools in Japan, and if you are in the area, you should pay them a visit. My favourite guy there passed away last year, so I feel sad about visiting nowadays, but they still have excellent tools. A 15 minute walk from Kaminarimon in Asakusa, or a five minute taxi ride. I think the current owner is the founder's great grandson, but his English is not so good, sorry to say.

    (株)水平屋商店東京都台東区千束1丁目1−3

    1.  Suiheiya Shouten
      Address: 1 Chome-1-3 Senzoku, Taito, Tokyo 111-0031

      Phone:03-3875-0292


    What has Suiheiya to do with Kiyotada, you ask? Obviously Shimamura san had a deep and longstanding relationship with Suiheiya. What is curious is that I was told that Suiheiya owned the registered trademark for the Kiyotada brand, but that Suiheiya was fine with Shimamura using the brand (actually a metal stamp) on all his tools regardless of retailer. I checked with Suiheiya, and indeed, they informed me, they own the Kiyotada trademark. That is why you can still buy chisels and planes with the Kiyotada brand on them from Suiheiya. Identical to the one on my chisel photos.

    The blacksmith who currently makes the Kiyotada brand chisel for Suiheiya resides in Niigata, but his work is unimpressive. Most of the large plane blades sold by Suiheiya under the Kiyotada brand are made by Sekikawa san. I have visited Mr. Sekikawa's home and forge, and have owned lots of his blades for many years, have always found them very well made, and an excellent value. But they are not made by Shimamura san, so if you go to Suiheiya and ask for a Kiyotada chisel, be sure to ask if the maker was Shimamura san, or the Niigata blacksmith.

    Another retailer in Tokyo of Shimamura san's chisels was Mr. Ichiro Tsuchida. Although his store is not as grand as Suiheiya (only two or at most three people can actually enter his store at the same time) I have bought a lot of tools from him over the years. You can tell this from my collection. The white oak handled chisels in these photos were bought at Tsuchida Hamonoten, now operated by Ichiro's son Noboru, and the red oak handled chisels were bought from Suiheiya. Simple personal preference of the shop owners. Those that he made for me custom are also handled in white oak as the transaction went through Tsuchida san.

    Probably more information than you wanted, but the price was right.

    Stan
    That is some great info Stanley! I know this is an old thread but hey if you are still around it would be great to hear your thoughts on Tsunehrio 常弘 and 長弘 Osahiro chisels. I know Osahiro was contemporary with Ichihiro and Kiyotada. Have you used these by any chance? I may be buying a set.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by shawn mcveigh View Post
    That is some great info Stanley! I know this is an old thread but hey if you are still around it would be great to hear your thoughts on Tsunehrio 常弘 and 長弘 Osahiro chisels. I know Osahiro was contemporary with Ichihiro and Kiyotada. Have you used these by any chance? I may be buying a set.
    Anyone who uses Kiyotada in comparison has an excellent reference point.

  4. #34
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    Shawn, send me an email and I will direct you to Stan. Bp.holcombe@gmail.com

  5. Shawn,

    My father has a set of oire nomis and 3 atsu nomis made by Ichihiro and I have oire and atsu nomis made by Stan's blacksmith. I know my fathers chisels intimately and I can honestly say my chisels are on par with them. If you like a chisel that is full hardness (and still tough) you won't regret buying from Stan.

    I also have a Nagahiro (Osahiro) mortise chisel on the way

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica de Boer View Post
    Shawn,

    My father has a set of oire nomis and 3 atsu nomis made by Ichihiro and I have oire and atsu nomis made by Stan's blacksmith. I know my fathers chisels intimately and I can honestly say my chisels are on par with them. If you like a chisel that is full hardness (and still tough) you won't regret buying from Stan.

    I also have a Nagahiro (Osahiro) mortise chisel on the way
    Hey Jessica, Thank you for your reply! I have tried Stanīs blacksmith about 4 years ago....not sure if it the same today? Is this the smith that uses white steel #2? if so they were probably the best reasonably priced chisels I have tried. I also have used everything from Kiyohisa, Kiyotada, Funahiro, Kikuhiromaru etc... Nice score on the Nagahiro chisel! where did you get it from if I may ask?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Shawn, send me an email and I will direct you to Stan. Bp.holcombe@gmail.com
    Thanks Brian! message sent

  8. Quote Originally Posted by shawn mcveigh View Post
    Hey Jessica, Thank you for your reply! I have tried Stanīs blacksmith about 4 years ago....not sure if it the same today? Is this the smith that uses white steel #2?
    My oire and atsu nomis are white steel #1.

    if so they were probably the best reasonably priced chisels I have tried. I also have used everything from Kiyohisa, Kiyotada, Funahiro, Kikuhiromaru etc...
    I used to have a set of Kikuhiromaru oire nomis but I sold them when I got the ones made by Stan's blacksmith. I didn't order them directly from Stan but they come from a store that sells chisels made by his blacksmith. They are so much better than Kikuhiromaru.

    Nice score on the Nagahiro chisel! where did you get it from if I may ask?
    When my father was in his 20's he worked in Japan for several years. He always kept in touch with one of his old co-workers (almost 40 years now!) and he has one he offered me for a reasonable price. Of course I immediately accepted. It should take about a week to arrive to me.

  9. #39
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    When my father was in his 20's he worked in Japan for several years. He always kept in touch with one of his old co-workers (almost 40 years now!) and he has one he offered me for a reasonable price. Of course I immediately accepted. It should take about a week to arrive to me.[/QUOTE]

    PM sent

  10. Handmade chisels is a fascinating subject. I only own one Japanese chisel that I bought from Lee Valley to try out. My daily use chisels are Veritas PVM-11 chisels which I really like. What is the price range on the handmade Japanese chisels?

  11. #41
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    Hi Jessica,

    What do you like about your new chisels? I have some Kikuhiromaru and am content, so a stupid question....

    Best,
    Chris
    "You can observe a lot just by watching."
    --Yogi Berra

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Charles View Post
    What do you like about your new chisels?[/COLOR]
    Chris, they are much harder. I would say maybe twice as hard as the Kikuhiromarus I used to have but they are just as tough. I also find them easier to sharpen and they take a sharper edge and hold that sharpness longer. Using my father's Ichihiros has taught me one thing, I like a very hard white paper steel #1 chisel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Martin Winnipeg View Post
    What is the price range on the handmade Japanese chisels?
    It depends on if you want something from a famous blacksmith and how important a fine finish is for you. Something like Tasai or Kunikei is nicely finished and goes for €100 to €200 for a single chisel depending on the size and finish while the chisels that Stan's blacksmith makes are equal or better for half the price. For me it's all about performance so the choice was easy. (I personally think the finish is very nice)

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica de Boer View Post
    Chris, they are much harder. I would say maybe twice as hard as the Kikuhiromarus I used to have but they are just as tough. I also find them easier to sharpen and they take a sharper edge and hold that sharpness longer. Using my father's Ichihiros has taught me one thing, I like a very hard white paper steel #1 chisel.


    It depends on if you want something from a famous blacksmith and how important a fine finish is for you. Something like Tasai or Kunikei is nicely finished and goes for €100 to €200 for a single chisel depending on the size and finish while the chisels that Stan's blacksmith makes are equal or better for half the price. For me it's all about performance so the choice was easy. (I personally think the finish is very nice)
    Do you have any trouble sharpening those super hard white steel #1 chisels on natural stones? About what Rockwell Hardness would you put them at?

    I like to use natural oil stones (and, to a degree also a few Jnats), so I tend to shy away from super hard steels. My very limited experience with low end Japanese white steel is that despite being harder, it is still easy to sharpen on natural stones. This makes it infinitely better than PMV-11 in my eyes, just as I consider O1 far superior to A2 (given how close they are in performance), so I wonder if this holds true for harder white steels as well.

  14. #44
    Luke, you might be confusing hardness with abrasion resistance. High chrome steels like stainless resist abrasion, which makes them harder to sharpen, but not generally harder than simple carbon steels.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    Luke, you might be confusing hardness with abrasion resistance. High chrome steels like stainless resist abrasion, which makes them harder to sharpen, but not generally harder than simple carbon steels.
    Ahhh, I see. I guess this is also why white steel seems so prone to rust compared to my A1 or even O1 tools. And, unless I'm mistaken, my cheap Japanese chisels seem even easier to sharpen than my O1 tools, which would make sense if O1 has more chrome content.

    What would be a similar Western equivelant? Simple "1095 Carbon Steel"? It seems odd that I never hear of any modern tool manufacturers using 1095.

    To be honest, I'm not very knowledgeable of steel types in general. This is something I'd like to learn more about, as I'd like to learn to make some of my own tools in the future (and/or possibly have some custom made).

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