Red Oak

[Paul Gilbert]

My niece called this morning all in a panic and informed me that they were taking down the tree next door which has been a legend and the subject of many folk tales at her house. She implored me to turn a bowl from this tree. Arriving at her house around 2 PM I found that that the tree was Red Oak with a girth exceeding 3'.

I have never turned Red Oak. Live Oak yes, but never the Red variety. Live Oak turned well when green and like cement when dry. Does this fit the description of the Red variety?

Well, if you get a downed tree, why stop with just one blank? So a F150 pickup load later I got home and started processing blanks for natural edge bowls. I will be 80 in March and am 150 lbs over my 20 year old weight. So that took a while and by the time I got the pith out of the chunks, the pith had already started to crack. Is Red Oak a real problem with cracking?

From what I have seen and from past experience I am inclined to turn thin and let warp. I wonder if twice turned bowls would survive time in the bag.

Thanks for any advice.

I solicit you advice.

[Brice Rogers]

I looked up the T/R shrinkage ratio for red oak and it is about in the middle of the range. (I just learned about T/R ratio from another SMC poster today!) So it has some tendency for cracking but it isn't horrible.

I find that the ends fresh cut logs start to show small cracks within an hour of being cut. But the cracks usually don't go too deep. If you haven't already done so, coat the ends with wax or anchor seal as soon as you can. If you can't get to it promptly, wrap something like saran wrap on the ends, or stick them into a plastic bag.

Robo Hippy showed on one of his videos (which are very good) how he takes that stretchy wrap and wraps it around the rim of once-cut bowls to keep them from cracking as they dry. That seems to make sense. I've started doing that. I bought a roll of the stretchy wrap from Staples in their packaging dept.

[Dennis Ford]

I think red oak makes the prettiest turnings of any oak. Turning it as soon as possible is important (more so than with most woods). Turned thin and allowed to warp is the way to highest success ratio. It is possible to twice turn it but oak is very unforgiving of mistakes like: leaving the bottom thicker than the edge, drying too fast, making the rough-out too thick, leaving knots in the rough-out. If you have any end-checking on pieces that you plan on using; be aware that those checks go deeper than you can see. If left in the rough-out, those invisible checks will become very visible cracks.

[mike pockoski]

Agree with Dennis here...i turn a lot of oak, red and white especially. it's beautiful and interesting and takes "treatments" well (pickling, dying, colored waxes and sand-back, charring, etc.) but the invisible cracks can catch you if you're not watching for them. you see them on the blank, so you think you've turned them out, but they'll sneak back up on you.

I've had twice-turned luck by rounding the edges (cracks always start at corners of things), wrapping with packaging wrap a-la Robo-Hippie mentioned above, and inspecting during drying. When i see a hidden crack starting to come out, a little dab of CA will hold it shut and force those stresses to redistribute elsewhere. A bit of wax on the area before CA glue will stop it from staining the fibers.

I've even done a few with compression straps and rubber bands on the small ones on them to hold them in compression during drying... worked out ok, but was too tedious for me to keep checking the tie-downs and tightening them back up.

sounds like you've got plenty, why not turn some both ways and see how it turns out!

good luck, and enjoy!

[John K Jordan]

Hello Paul. What size blanks? We all tend to make blanks as large as possible but sometimes small is better. If yours are large you might make some smaller to get the bottom further away from the center of the log. The figure may not be as interesting but the overall movement and and cracking might be less. This way if some larger bowls crack some smaller ones may survive. Oak is notorious for warping, especially in board form, but the further you get from the center the better. Maybe also cut some smaller blanks to turn without the natural edge.

With any hardwood and especially with oak, I try to keep away from knots and limbs. A big tree may have limbs as large as the trunks of other trees but unless they have grown straight up there will be considerable reaction wood, probably the worst wood I know for turning. Look at this slice from an oak limb from my farm, probably 12" across. This limb was about 40' long, growing nearly horizontal!

reaction_wood_extreme.jpg

And as someone mentioned, try for a thin, uniform wall and especially avoid a thick base if the base is toward the center of the tree.

But one thing I've learned well - wood is so variable that what happens with wood from one tree or even from one part of one tree may be far different from another blank! No way to insure consistency without turning plastic or brass.

I've turned red and white oak green and dry. Yes, dry is much harder - I usually put oak for barn siding while it is green since it is a lot harder to nail when dry (and since installing it green keeps it flat while drying). However with sharp tools and good technique dry oak is really no big problem turning. But I've never tried live oak - wish I had a piece or two!

Here is a bowl made from white oak, cut from near the roots. (there is often better figure there for turning) This was quite dry when turned.

whiteoak_bowl_02.jpg

But dry oak is easy compared some woods - the worst I've turned was kiln-dried lyptus! - one guy at a demo said it was just like turning concrete, cursing and muttering as chunks and dust came off and the gouge abused him severely. I think he threw the 1/2 turned blank into the trash. He gave me a blank to take home and yes, it was challenging but worked out just fine. This is what I brought to show him a few weeks later. I told him he just needed to learn how to sharpen a gouge! (this gentleman was a bowl-turning instructor) That was a jab but the devil made me do it.

lyptus_bowl.jpg

But seriously, I prefer to turn dry although razor sharp tools are definitely required. For large bowls I usually rough turn then finish turn a few months later.

Good luck with your bowl! I have done often that for neighbors and friends when a special tree had to come down. And once friends from my church gave me a 100 year-old mantel from their house - it was a chunk of mahogany 7"x9" by about 8' long. They didn't ask for a turning but I could tell they very much appreciated it!

JKJ

[Al Launier]

I'm not a turner, but in case this applies for your bowl application, red oak really draws water; the end grain is like straws. Try dipping a piece of red oak in water to compare to other species to verify. So, if it isn't sealed well it may cause problems in certain situations.

[George Guadiane]

The only thing I'd add here is KEEP YOUR TOOLS CLEAN of wet oak shavings and/or dust. The shavings corrode steel at a startling rate.
It is beautiful wood though.

[Prashun Patel]

I turn a good amount of green red and white oak. I have good success turning it rough ASAP and waxing the heck out of it - like 2, 3 days in a row. I do think the success rate varies from tree to tree. If you're willing to turn a little smaller, you can stay well away from that pith, which'll increase the chances of success.

[John Grace]

I looked up the T/R shrinkage ratio for red oak and it is about in the middle of the range. (I just learned about T/R ratio from another SMC poster today!) So it has some tendency for cracking but it isn't horrible.

I find that the ends fresh cut logs start to show small cracks within an hour of being cut. But the cracks usually don't go too deep. If you haven't already done so, coat the ends with wax or anchor seal as soon as you can. If you can't get to it promptly, wrap something like saran wrap on the ends, or stick them into a plastic bag.

Robo Hippy showed on one of his videos (which are very good) how he takes that stretchy wrap and wraps it around the rim of once-cut bowls to keep them from cracking as they dry. That seems to make sense. I've started doing that. I bought a roll of the stretchy wrap from Staples in their packaging dept.

Is there a web site where one can find the T/R shrinkage ratios? thanks...John

[Brice Rogers]

John Grace, There are a number of sites that list T/R ratio , including:
http://workshoppages.com/WS/Articles...ent-Charts.pdf or
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/T..._TR_ratio.html



Also, I typically just google something like "T/R ratio for alder" and then have some links to work with.

[John K Jordan]

Is there a web site where one can find the T/R shrinkage ratios? thanks...John

John G,

One thing: While the T/R ratio is a good indicator of how much any piece will warp, I also pay close attention to the actual shrinkage percentages. Woods with equal T/R ratios but different shrinkage percentages can behave quite differently, especially nearer the center of the tree (juvenile wood) and with any reaction wood (usually present in branches and leaning trees). And unless otherwise stated the numbers are for total shrinkage from freshly cut green wood.

And I always keep in mind that the values you find in tables are probably averages from one study or another. Wood from individual trees and even different areas on the same tree can vary.

JKJ