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Thread: Cloning...

  1. #1

    Cloning...

    I have received a couple of e-mails lately from a couple of companies in China. Apparently my 'interest' in CBN wheels has drawn attention. They want to sell me CBN grinding wheels. The pictures are all clones of the D Way, Optigrind which is the Raptor at Craft Supplies and the house brand for Woodcraft, and the Cuttermaster which is the Canadian one..... I am not sure if the Woodturningwonders wheels from Ken Rizza are in the mix or not. While it is accepted business practice, I have been on the receiving end of this with some of my other inventions, and will not support any of them, or the companies that sell them.

    robo hippy

  2. #2
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    You're being more polite about it than I would, Reed.

    Russell Neyman
    .


    Writer - Woodworker - Historian
    Instructor: The Woodturning Experience
    Puget Sound, Washington State


    "Outside of a dog, there's nothing better than a good book; inside of a dog it's too dark to read."

  3. #3
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    Back years ago when I worked for Powermatic, Taiwan cloned some of their machines and used a copy of the Powermatic manuals. They even stated parts could be ordered from Powermatic if needed. It's a never ending battle!
    Sid Matheny
    McMinnville, TN

  4. #4
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    People like me are not supporting China. We are buying what we can afford. I can not afford to buy US manufactured machines and neither can most other people. American companies and factory workers priced themselves out of the woodworking machinery business a long time ago.

  5. #5
    I get that Art and there lies the problem. You're not supporting China your supporting what you can afford which in turn supports China. I disagree with the comment about woodworking machinery in the USA costing more. It may cost more to make a higher quality tool like say Robust or Vicmarc but we can certainly make the same quality as a Powermatic here and be competitive with imported products. Just the greed of that extra $100 to $300 per machine by the owners of these companies is why they won't make them here. I know there is more to it than that like our corporate tax rates, EPA regulations and etc. But with our ingenuity in this country we certainly can compete however the powers to be don't want the challenge when they don't have to. Taking the easy road is to easy.

  6. #6
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    Some years ago this happened to Ruth Niles' excellent stainless steel bottle stoppers. Some guy shamelessly copied, milled, and tried to sell exact clones of her excellent stoppers. Some of us spread his contact information around and started a possibly impolite and loud barrage by email and other methods. I think he went away but that was a long time ago and don't know about the long term.

    One thing might be to warn the community by listing the names of the companies to watch out for.

    BTW, I watched your video today about the McNaughton coring tools. (I bought these long ago but never used them) I have to comment on how much I enjoyed the video - you have to be one of the clearest, calmest, and most professional and enjoyable presenters I have seen. I don't watch many videos and don't remember seeing any of yours in the past. Dang, now I'm going to have to look for some more.

    Hey, here are Ruth's stainless stoppers if anyone is interested.
    http://nilesbottlestoppers.com/stoppers.html

    When I make stoppers, these are what I use.
    stoppers_three.jpg

    JKJ

  7. #7
    Thanks John for the kind words on the video. I will save you time from searching, there is only the one video of me demonstrating.

  8. #8
    The company I work for designs and manufactures equipment for oil refineries and chemical plants worldwide. I know we have intentionally kept any of the design duties away from China. While we do source some castings from there (and if you don't go with the lowest bidder, they can produce some great castings), we don't want to risk them stealing our intellectual property for the system designs.

    With work, I was at a loading facility in Madagascar a few years back. I worked with a fellow from a European company that made loading arms for the massive ships. He said their company worked with a Chinese company on a large project and that the Chinese company was great. Documented everything, worked well, very responsive, got the job done and was very professional. After their joint project, they more or less went their separate ways. A couple of years later this European company starting finding clones of their loading arms-- a different paint scheme, but otherwise exact clones-- popping up at ports around the world. As near as they can tell, the Chinese company worked with them on that one project to get what knowledge they could, then stole their design. They had no suspicions at the time this was happening as the company seemed respectable and legitimate in all of their interactions. This has definitely been something I've kept in the back of my mind since I heard their tale.
    Licensed Professional Engineer,
    Unlicensed Semi Professional Tinkerer

  9. #9
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    I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with you on that point. I spent a career in the automotive components industry and one of my jobs was to help put together quotes on sales volumes in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. The plant I worked at, which employed 3,000+ people at one time, closed down because we couldn't come anywhere close to the quotes from our sister plant in Mexico. it wasn't even close. I had access to the figures from both plants so I know the whole story. The company could have kept the production in the US but then they wouldn't have been competitive with any other suppliers and the jobs would have disappeared for lack of business anyway. I can't imagine that the woodworking equipment business would be any different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Bonertz View Post
    I get that Art and there lies the problem. You're not supporting China your supporting what you can afford which in turn supports China. I disagree with the comment about woodworking machinery in the USA costing more. It may cost more to make a higher quality tool like say Robust or Vicmarc but we can certainly make the same quality as a Powermatic here and be competitive with imported products. Just the greed of that extra $100 to $300 per machine by the owners of these companies is why they won't make them here. I know there is more to it than that like our corporate tax rates, EPA regulations and etc. But with our ingenuity in this country we certainly can compete however the powers to be don't want the challenge when they don't have to. Taking the easy road is to easy.
    Last edited by Art Mann; 01-19-2016 at 9:58 AM.

  10. #10
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    It seems to me that our government should not deal in trade with a country that admits to stealing our intellectual property, attacking our web, and all the other nefarious BS that China does to gain a competitive advantage. I could care-less that they claim to be Communist, more Capitalist Communism than anything. If the government is aware of such trespasses though, it's an easy albeit expensive solution (at least in the short term), cease trade with them or place injunctions on them.
    USMC '97-'01

  11. #11
    This will be my last post on this so I want to clear up what I was saying. First Art the reason American companies can't compete price wise has many layers. I'll point out but a few of them one is corporate tax rates being to high, EPA regulations to strict, osha regulations, liability and some wage issues but that is low on the list when compared to transportation to get there product here and if people earn more they can afford more (getting into a complex topic - wages - it is not a dollar for dollar increase in products as some want you to believe). If we competed with the same type of quality issues that China has, yes we can compete, where it gets muddy is we are accustomed to our quality being better thus we hold ourselves to a higher standard.

    Matt I understand what you're saying however Powermatic isn't competing with China they are collaborating with China. China's economy will eventually collapse causing manufacturing issues and either manufacturing operations will move to another poor country or we (USA corporations) can decide to bring jobs back here and yes maybe pay a little more.

    This all reminds me of someone I know. He rants about illegal immigrants and they should be sent home. But when he needed a new roof who did he hire, you guessed it a bunch of illegal immigrants. Ok for him to save a little money on his roof but damn those companies and other people hiring them.

    In closing I also was a purchasing director of a company so I understand low bids. I am now a remodeling contractor (22 years) and really understand low bids. They are either done by new companies trying to acquire a reference list or companies who are cutting corners on quality of products and installation. When you factor in reject material and costs associated with finding, handling, warranty, service trips and sometime end up short on a part which slows production those costs are often overlooked by the bottom line (short list of problems). If they (companies) factored them into the cost of business paying a little more for a reliable product often times makes more sense. Unless of course their business plan is to go out of business when those costs get to high and then start up with a new name and no past liabilities. Just to clarify I am not naive I know they have figured much of it in the bottom line but the labor costs are often overlooked when comprising those numbers to deal with the low bid issues (form manufacturing through distributors, dealers and end users). Of course manufacturers don't give a hoot about what happens outside of their facility - now were getting into customer service and satisfaction, see you guys get me started so now I'll stop.

  12. #12
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    According to a report published last April, 55% of all American households own stock in US companies. So, when you try to blame owners of companies for problems, you are trying to blame a majority of US households. There are a lot of people who don't even realize their retirement plan is invested in the stock market.

    We live in a capitalistic society. The object of a company is to produce a profit NOT furnish jobs at the expense of profit. You can argue all day what one might consider a fair profit but frankly it's subjective. It's funny how one can post on a website like SMC what a great profit they make from something they produce with a very high markup and then in the same breath call another company's profit "greed". A company that doesn't make a profit goes out of business, no longer helps the economy indirectly and supports nobody including their retirees.

    The ONLY reason a company moves their production facilities offshore is because it's cheaper to manufacture goods there. The cost of labor, materials, energy, taxes and lower environmental standards make it more profitable to manufacture goods offshore. It always amazes me that organizations or groups that push for higher environmental standards or higher labor costs never want to accept their responsibility in driving up the cost to produce the same product or acknowledge the effect on the economy or jobs lost as a result. It's been nearly a half century since "Made in America" provided some assurance one would get a quality product either in materials or assembly.

    While companies like Grizzly, for example, may not manufacture goods in this country, they do provide direct employment to hundreds within this country. They also affect the economy by using US shipping companies and other required services.

    Point blank.

    Most of the people on this board are amateurs or hobbyists. Most couldn't afford or if they can afford, can't justify the cost of expensive made in the USA tools for a hobby. In my shop, I have some US made tools, some European made tools and yes, some Asian made tools. I live on a budget thus when I think about buying a new tool, I consider the estimated use/importance in my shop and then determine what I can justify spending for that new tool.

    If I had to buy only US or Canadian made tools, I would not have built a stand alone woodworking shop. Thus my contractor and his two carpenters wouldn't have received any financial benefit. A local lumberyard recommended the contractor so I insisted he buy his materials from them. They wouldn't have profited from my shop build.

    So the alternative for a lot of folks is buy Asian made tools or not woodwork. There is no alternative available today.

    When it becomes cheaper to manufacture products in the US, then manufacturing will return to the US.
    Last edited by Ken Fitzgerald; 01-19-2016 at 12:30 PM.
    Ken

    So much to learn, so little time.....

  13. #13
    For many businesses, the choice comes down to staying business, or closing the doors. The mass produced items just can't be done here any more due to the high cost of labor and the high costs of doing business in this country. For the 'custom' businesses, things are more specialty items are done here because the costs are not that much different once you add in shipping. We have become so expensive that we can't afford ourselves. Sad.

    robo hippy

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Bonertz View Post
    see you guys get me started so now I'll stop.
    HUH?

    You started it.

  15. #15
    Chinese companies aren't breaking the law cloning, chinese law. Also, if a chinese company has a contract to make a product, or any part of that product, when the contract ends the chinese company can make the entire product and legally use the brand name, inside china. Of course then the product escapes china gray market. Every foreign company that deals with china isn't ignorant of these facts, the demand is for profit today and don't worry about tomorrow. China is crawling with ford and chevy trucks now, the company did choose to put their own name on them though.

    All the other costs mentioned are real but lets talk labor costs a minute. The company making emblems and other parts for ford and chevy a few years back in china made the news. Just as some side information to the safety issues it came out that they were paying their people almost a dollar an hour, forget overtime. No benefits, just the opposite, a worker provides their employer free benefits. Also, like we go to china for cheap production costs, they sub to north korea and a few other places for a third of the costs in china!

    Something rarely mentioned is almost every casting we get from china is from a chinese government owned plant. Even our biggest corporations can't compete with governments.

    We want more than we can afford. The American way I guess. Never-the-less, we are our own worst enemies. See y'all later, I got to make a Wal-Mart run!

    Hu

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