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Thread: Another CBN wheel question

  1. #1
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    Another CBN wheel question

    I'm considering adding a CBN wheel to my sharpening routines. I have both a Rikon slow speed grinder with the Tormek bench grinder adapter as well as the Jet Tormek clone. Which would be the better one to use the CBN wheel on? Have any of you tried using the Jet or Tormek with the wheel?

    Cliff
    The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
    Charles Bukowski

  2. #2
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    Hi Cliff.

    I personally use two CBN wheels, a 600 grit on a Tormek and a 220 grit on a no-name 3/4 hp slow speed grinder. I like these so much I just ordered another one. I bought mine from Ken Rizza, http://woodturnerswonders.com/collections/cbn-wheels These are machined from aluminum.

    I think the machine to use might depend on what you are grinding. I primarily sharpen lathe tools and also use the Tormek jigs with both machines. I prefer the Tormek for 90% of sharpening but also like the coarser wheel on the grinder for occasionally shaping the tools. If I had just one, I'd go with the Tormek (for MY type of use, of course) and shape tools as needed with the bench grinder.

    One caution, some people have reported that heavy steel CBN wheels may make a smaller grinder slow to start or need to be given an spin by hand. Others have no problem so it depends on the wheels and grinder. The aluminum wheels are lighter than the steel. I also have a 1/2 hp Rikon slow-speed grinder at my sharpening station but I haven't tried the CBN wheel on it. I do notice it has way less power compared to my other grinders and is slower to spin up even the traditional grinding wheels.

    JKJ

  3. #3
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    John,

    Good point. I should have mentioned the type of sharpening. I'll be doing chisels and plane blades. I haven't gotten in to turning. Luckily I don't have room in the shop for a lathe since I've heard that turning is the crack of woodworking and I have an addictive personality.

    Are you using a 8" or 10" wheel on the Tormek? I tried hollow grinding on the Jet with the 10" wheel to try my hand at free handing but the hollow wasn't enough for me to easily find the balance point. I thought a 8" hollow might be easier.

    Cliff
    The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
    Charles Bukowski

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Polubinsky View Post
    I'm considering adding a CBN wheel to my sharpening routines. I have both a Rikon slow speed grinder with the Tormek bench grinder adapter as well as the Jet Tormek clone. Which would be the better one to use the CBN wheel on? Have any of you tried using the Jet or Tormek with the wheel?
    Cliff
    I have 8" CBN on a Delta variable speed grinder (same minimum RPM as the Rikon at ~1750) and 10" CBN on a Tormek. A couple thoughts:

    1. CBN wheels run really cool due to a combination of cutting efficiency and thermal conductivity. Even on the Delta at 1750 RPM my tools never get too hot to touch, never mind hot enough to anneal them. I do limit grinding to ~10 sec at a time, but even so I can grind at least 1/3 of the time and still be safe. I never use water with the CBN wheel on the Tormek. I do grind with a light touch - I'm sure you could rapidly burn a tool on CBN if you pushed hard enough :-).

    2. The Tormek is nice when I want a shallower hollow or when I'm doing detail work such that the Delta would remove material too quickly. Also the Tormek has a wide variety of special-purpose jigs that come in handy.

  5. #5
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    Are you using a 8" or 10" wheel on the Tormek?
    I have the 10" wheel. I don't sharpen plane blades much, but the time I did I used the Tormek jig and it was OK, but my plane-sharpening experience is pretty low.

    JKJ

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    Patrick,

    I was thinking of putting an 8" wheel on the Jet. As you mentioned it has a number of jigs that might be easier to set up on the Jet then on the Rikon. Do you see any problems with a setup like that?

    Cliff
    The problem with the world is that intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
    Charles Bukowski

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Polubinsky View Post
    Patrick,

    I was thinking of putting an 8" wheel on the Jet. As you mentioned it has a number of jigs that might be easier to set up on the Jet then on the Rikon. Do you see any problems with a setup like that?

    Cliff
    Other than (lack of) speed, no. The jet is adjustable to 150 rpm so with the 8" wheel your surface speed would be 33% faster than I get with a 10" wheel on the 90 rpm Tormek. I wouldn't want to use that for major repairs, though it's still a lot faster than a coarse waterstone so depending on your baseline it might be sufficiently fast :-).

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    If you have followed Derek's thread on CBN wheels you may have noted the issues he has had. If you read the details you may find where Derek mentions the Tormek rest he uses. He mentions that the specific issues he is having might not be significant for someone hand sharpening on another rest. Personally I had problems with the Tormek rest, which is a round bar. The round bar allows any object rested on it to move in many more directions than a flat plate does. I have had very good luck with a tool rest I bought from Woodworkers Emporium designed by Stuart Batty which allows me to control motion of plane blades along the crucial "planes". My implication then is that the type tool rest you use and your experience using it may be more/equally significant vs which wheel you buy. Derek has a great deal of experience using the Tormek rest and is able to make it work with many different jigs, although he does mention the necessity of having the bar precisely mounted in relation to the wheel surface. You may find it easier starting out to work by hand with a device like the SB that maintains control precisely along two planes.

  9. #9
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    The round bar allows any object rested on it to move in many more directions than a flat plate does.
    I'm confused, do you mean using when the rest without a jig?

    I haven't done much with plane irons but for chisels I use the jig which locks the tool in place so it cannot move any direction but against the stone and slide horizontally. I also have two flat rests for the Tormek, one smaller and one larger. I also use these same jigs and flat tool rests with the extra Tormek rest on a bench grinder.

    JKJ

  10. #10
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    Right John, as I mentioned I grind freehand. Certainly the jigs available for Tormeks further constrain the ability of a tool to move on it's own. This may be a good thing if the bar is properly oriented to the wheel. The Tormek is designed with two sets of holes to hold the bar in the correct place. On my older model Tormek there is no clamping mechanism for one side of one set of holes for the bar, which in my case seems to leave a little play in the bar if I am not diligent and careful when I set it up. If I am not very careful I find I can deflect the bar a few degrees even without applying much pressure. My lock nut does not like to lock the bar tightly in the position I tend to use the bar most of the time. I think this may be a reason I have had issues. The issues I have with mine would continue regardless of the jig as the bar itself may deflect.

    Using the Tormek bar in a self made devise for holding it, which is what has to be done to use it on a grinder other than a Tormek raises a further question in my mind. I personally had doubts about my ability to build something to hold the Tormek bar in the precise position it needs to be in to be successful. I was especially concerned about this as I was finding that after I thought I had the bar set up properly in the holes designed for that purpose I was still getting deflection. I suspect that newer models of Tormeks may not have this issue, but it causes me to question whether or not I could build something that would hold the bar reliably. It has come to my attention that not everyone, especially myself, has Derek's skill set for building jigs and tools. I often used my Tormek bar without a jig as some of the older jigs may not work as well as the newer models. Certainly there is substantial cost for the Tormek bar and the jigs. If I had the collection of newer jigs that I think Derek does I might have reason to try to use a Tormek bar on my Delta grinder, but I have not made that investment, maybe you have?

  11. #11
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    I was just checking out Tormek accessories and see that they now offer a mounting bracket for the "universal support" bar. Certainly this would provide what one would hope would be a reliable system for mounting the bar. Still I suspect mounting that bracket would require more care to get it functioning well. My other issue with that alternative is the cost of a mounting bracket and bar and upgrade to the arbor on my Tormek would cost more than the SB rest, and that is without any jigs. My research also revealed that the price of a CBN wheel for a Tormek would be substantially greater than for a regular 8" grinder. My point being that there was substantially more cost to get all the accessories necessary to outfit a Tormek. I am not comfortable laying out that amount of money for a system that I have had bad luck with for some time, especially if there was an alternative that I thought was: less expensive, quicker and easier to set up, easier to use, does not need extra jigs to do the job.

  12. #12
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    cost effective?

    they now offer a mounting bracket for the "universal support" bar.
    If you mean this one:
    turmek_bracket.png
    http://www.tormek.com/en/accessories/bgm100/index.php
    I've been using it on one of my bench grinders for a bunch of years now. I use it with the Tormek jigs to reshape or shape new tools before moving them to the Tormek. When I replaced the standard grinding wheel with a CBN it was even better.

    I made a wooden block to hold the bracket. The entire grinder is mounted on a piece of 3/4" plywood so the block and bracket was easy to mount and align. I also have a OneWay Wolverine sharpening system for lathe tools on that same grinder so I made my block with a cutout to allow clearance for the Wolverine tightening handle. This gives me the best of both worlds. I don't have a photo but if anyone wants to see it I can take a picture.

    Yes, the cost is high. I shape and sharpen a wide variety of tools but mostly woodturning tools. Compared to flat edges, the compound curves on a bowl or spindle gouge are almost impossible for most people to do well and repeatedly without a jig of some sort. Even at best, repeated sharpening by hand or on a coarse grinding wheel wears the tools rapidly since they often need to be resharpened several times while turning a single project. Also, the compound curves cannot be easily honed to perfection like a flat edge so the Tormek with a fine CBN or water wheel and honing wheel restores a dull edge far closer to the ideal sharpness with very little time and effort.

    It the last 15 years I've probably spent a couple of thousand dollars on these and other sharpening machines and stones, diamond, ceramic, etc. Spread out over 20 years it doesn't sound so bad. And I now can sharpen almost anything to suit me (well except end mills for my milling machine, but stay tuned.)

    All this made it easy for me to justify the cost. Whether it would be justified to sharpen short, flat edges alone is a question I can't answer.

    JKJ

  13. #13
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    I looked at the option of upgrading all my Tormek gear, mine is all quite old, so I could use it for a much wider range of sharpening. My particular hot button was plane blades though. I do some green woodworking, making Windsor chairs. I was thinking hard about buying a lathe but chickened out as I have some housing & shop issues up in the air at the moment. I believe Stuart Batty who designed the SB rest I have is a noted turner and designed his rest for turners too. The Oneway system seems to be the most popular system for sharpening the turning tools. My idea was to put the SB rest on one side and the Oneway on the other side. As you mention the Tormek Universal rest can be modified to work with Oneway jigs, which I was thinking about. I bought the less expensive LV tool rest to try out thinking the sliding jig might be a big help with plane blades but so far I prefer using the SB. For me the SB was a smaller investment vs all the Tormek jigs I would need even considering the ones I have. The SB provided me a single jig/rest/tool that can handle a wide variety of hand sharpening tasks with the single rest. So far I am happy with the SB. If I end up with a lathe I may revisit the rest I use on the other side, maybe eliminating the LV rest in favor of a Wolverine set up or another SB, especially if they follow through with plans to add a slide other options/jigs to it. The Wolverine system seems to me to offer the best bang for the money at the moment for turning tool sharpening. Due to the issues with my older Tormek system I was reluctant to invest more in it.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 01-03-2016 at 12:06 AM.

  14. #14
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    Sorry, somehow I missed your other message. This is what I made to use the Tormak jigs and the Wolverine on the bench grinder with the CBN wheel. I have another coarser CBN coming to add to that grinder. I've added a second smaller grinder and second wolverine on one side with a buffing wheel.

    tormek_B.jpg tormek_A.jpg

    The bracket has two locking screws and does have less play than the one on the Tormek. However, I usually have a very light touch while sharpening and I don't do plane irons so the pay doesn't bother me. I did think about adding a second locking screw with a bit of welding and tapping.

    If you decide to sell the Tormek I'm looking for a second one. I like the CBN on the Tormek but I also like the water wheel for my smaller spindle gouges. I put an ad on Classifieds for one - I'm really looking for the newer T7 but would consider the older model if the shaft/bolt was not rusted and the price was right. I understand there were some improvements but I have the older model. But if you might get a lathe some day you should probably keep the Tormek, at least for a while.

    JKJ

  15. #15
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    Looking at the locking mechanism on the top of my Tormek and comparing it to your picture on the left. The left side of mine has no way to clamp the bar in the left side. Even with the locking nut, on the right side, all the way in and the right locking nut tightened down the bar in the left side wiggles back and forth within the housing. Even without using much pressure, I can deflect the end of the bar, that holds jigs, a distance of 1/4 to 3/8". I am fairly confident this is why I have not been able to get consistent results. It has taken me quite a while to figure this out as the locking mechanism looks secure. The results I was getting suggested the bar was deflecting it just took me a long time to figure out why/how. The clamp shown in your picture, left, looks just like mine, except for the missing locking clamp on mine. Now I am wondering if there is a Tormek part I could order to replace the clamping mech. on mine. I think the CBN wheel in John's picture is a Wood Turners Wonders, just like one of mine.

    Tormeck rest.jpeg

    I can wiggle the bar, with the thumb on the end as shown, by at least 1/4-3/8"

    My message to the OP being that for the Tormek jigs to work that bar must remain precisely aligned to the wheel.

    thumb_IMG_0879.jpeg

    This is the SB rest I use most of the time freehand. The curved rear end of the rest helps when making curved edges. It is very good at holding a plane blade against the wheel for grinding hollowed edges and cambers.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 01-02-2016 at 11:49 PM.

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