Help Me Evolve My Sharpening: Scary Sharpish to Sharpton + Naniwa Snow White

[Derek Cohen]

Gentlemen and ladies, I would LOVE it if we could all be respectful of each other, and NOT use personally insulting language. Even better, if we could have attitudes towards our fellow man that reflect who's image we bear, the equality that we are created in, and in humility NOT have to position ourselves over one another? Differences of skill, technique, or approaches to the same problem don't have to turn ugly or into competition.

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BACK ON TOPIC: It seems like Atoma 400 or similar will be good to get eventually to make quick work of stone flattening. For now, would 400x loose Silicon Carbide be the correct grit for flattening? How far will 2oz go?

As far as 1k stones go: Shapton Pro 1k is a splash and go contender (but less effective for A2, etc), and though Sigma Power 1.2k might perform better it requires a soak. Chosera 800 seems like it might be better at hard steels AND might match the Snow White in being short soak/splash and go worthy.

Patrick linked to the 1500 grit paper I can use to supplement the Snow White until I can get a 1k range stone.

Hi Matt

As far as a "1000" stone goes, I much prefer the Pro Shapton 1000 to the Sigma Power 1200 on any steel (I have used it on M4). The 1000 is the best stone made by Shapton (I own but have not used the 5000/12000 for some years).
I use two sharpening systems. In these, the alternative to the 1000 is a well worn (10 year old) Eze-lap Fine (600 grit) diamond stone.

The other systems are either Sigma 6000/13000 or Spyderco Medium/Ultra Fine. I use the latter more often as they require the least upkeep, which was the reasoning for purchasing them in the first place.

I hollow grind to 1/64" of the edge (sometimes closer!). I have never experienced a weakened adge as a result of this. Some do not like hollow grinds. That is their choice. For myself, my sharpening method is built around a hollow, which I freehand on. The less the amount of steel at the microbevel end, the faster and easier the honing. This is also important since, when the amount of steel is minimised, the honing media becomes less critical. This became apparent when I began using the Tormek about 10 years ago, and was the reason I switched to the cbn wheels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

I skimmed a good deal of this thread but my suggestion to the OP would be to buy a grinder. I have many of the stones mentioned, quite a few of the diamond plates....but since I found a way to hollow grind by hand I do not use them very often, I struggled with a Tormek and stones for years, not getting the results I was looking for. A good grinder and stone or CBN wheel can do the job in much less time than trying to do it by hand against a stone or plate. The better stones and CBN wheels can also do the job with very little risk of heat issues, none with a little practice. I have found it very frustrating to sharpen hand tools on stones, simply I believe, because the work goes too slow.

I would encourage the OP to go to Derek Cohen's Blog and read some of his written material on sharpening pertaining to grinders and CBN wheels. Another frequent poster here, for many years, was David Weaver who kept telling me to just do it on a grinder. Finally I saw the light. A hollow ground edge is much easier to maintain. I now do most of my maintenance, day to day, sharpening on a couple waterless very hard "polishing" stones. The edges I am maintaining only touch the stones along a paper thin line on each side of the edge which means I only have to remove the barest minimum amount of steel to get things sharp. The two polishing stones do not require water/oil or constant flattening which reduces the work even more. I think guys new to sharpening hand tools would save themselves a great deal of grief by starting out developing grinder hand skills. Wood Turners do considerably more sharpening of even harder steels than "flat" woodworkers do, so do green woodworkers and chair makers. All the guys who have to sharpen that much and often do it with grinders for a reason, it's just much easier. I wish I had figured that out sooner. Joel at Tools For Working Wood wrote an article, June 2008, for Fine Woodworking which also explains this concept.

Dang Derek is always heading me off at the pass!

[Brian Holcombe]

As I said I'm an irremediable stone ho, and frankly I started accumulating them before I knew what I was doing (see bit on first page about killing a DMT DiaFlat by sheer ignorance. Not my proudest moment).

I can't speak for DW, and I usually use a honing guide to establish my starting straight/square edges, but I know of a couple ways he could have done it that would get him close enough (within tenths of a degree) for the chipbreaker's rotational play:

- Break out the combo-square or engineer's square and iterate, sharpening one side more than the other as needed. In other words, conceptually the same approach you would take to joint the corners of a rectangular workpiece to square with a plane.

- Paint the back of the blade with marking fluid, scribe a perpendicular line with a square, and grind away. You can use this approach to get a decently straight and square edge (close enough to easily true up on a stone) on a bench grinder.

Note that having a hand-honed straight/flat bevel on the leading edge makes it easier to grind square from there on out, since you can gauge your grinding work based on the thickness of that bevel. You know you're straight and square to within pretty decent tolerances when it's uniform all across (the human visual system is good at judging straightness and relative thickness...). I believe that was one of the points of DW's video.

It's probably worth noting that a nontrivial number of cap irons ship noticeably out-of-square (even the oldfangled-but-now-newfangled solid ones). The rotational play in the cap iron to blade interface is there to accommodate grinding tolerances in both parts. It's not like honing guides or hyper-accurate combination squares were cheaply available in Leonard Bailey's day, but they still set their cap irons close back then (per Warren), so it's unsurprising that the basic tool design accommodates enough slop to allow for hand-preparation.

Finally there's nothing wrong with starting "square obsessive" and then loosening up as you go. That's frankly what most people do, including DW (go look at some of his old posts and compare them to what he's doing now). I'm less obsessive than that or that what you describe but still pretty OCD. At some point everybody starts to figure out what does and doesn't matter in woodworking and we optimize our processes accordingly. IMO the ability to close-set the cap iron *does* matter, but there are a lot of ways you can get there - it doesn't require high precision in all of the relevant parts.

The only thing I have learned from this thread is that you are in need of some Jnats!

Hehehehe.

[Patrick Chase]

I would encourage the OP to go to Derek Cohen's Blog and read some of his written material on sharpening pertaining to grinders and CBN wheels. Another frequent poster here, for many years, was David Weaver who kept telling me to just do it on a grinder. Finally I saw the light. A hollow ground edge is much easier to maintain. I now do most of my maintenance, day to day, sharpening on a couple waterless very hard "polishing" stones. The edges I am maintaining only touch the stones along a paper thin line on each side of the edge which means I only have to remove the barest minimum amount of steel to get things sharp. The two polishing stones do not require water/oil or constant flattening which reduces the work even more. I think guys new to sharpening hand tools would save themselves a great deal of grief by starting out developing grinder hand skills. Wood Turners do considerably more sharpening of even harder steels than "flat" woodworkers do, so do green woodworkers and chair makers. All the guys who have to sharpen that much and often do it with grinders for a reason, it's just much easier. I wish I had figured that out sooner. Joel at Tools For Working Wood wrote an article, June 2008, for Fine Woodworking which also explains this concept.

Dang Derek is always heading me off at the pass!

+1 to Derek's article about CBN wheels - That's what finally brought me to the light (though I still like to work with coarse stones when I have the time).

Also +1 to Joel's grinding article in FWW, though I personally don't bother with crowned wheels as he suggested since I don't grind to a burr. Also if you go the CBN route you don't have that option at all, but then again CBN wheels run cooler than even the 3X ones he recommended.

[Patrick Chase]

The only thing I have learned from this thread is that you are in need of some Jnats!

Hehehehe.

My wife would probably get them anyway in the resulting divorce...

[Kees Heiden]

Also +1 to Joel's grinding article in FWW, though I personally don't bother with crowned wheels as he suggested since I don't grind to a burr. Also if you go the CBN route you don't have that option at all, but then again CBN wheels run cooler than even the 3X ones he recommended.

I have never understood the recomendation to crown the grinding wheel. So I make my Norton 3X wheel flat and am happy with the result. Crowning the wheel seems a waste of good ginding material to me.

[Derek Cohen]

I have never understood the recomendation to crown the grinding wheel. So I make my Norton 3X wheel flat and am happy with the result. Crowning the wheel seems a waste of good ginding material to me.

Hi Kees

The crowned wheel works very well. I used this method when I had white wheels.

The point of the crown is to steer the bevel (freehand) and grind more precisely. It helps avoid unnecessary grinding at the sides of a wide blade, which is more likely to occur if the wheel is out-of-square or has been very coarsely surfaced. One is also vulnerable to dub the edges when freehanding an even hollow on a flat face.

The Tormek is ground flat, as is the CBN wheel (which comes this way). The Tormek must be perfectly flat because it uses a blade holding guide that runs parallel to the face of the wheel ... which is why the original CBN wheels (that were not perfectly flat) caused problems (freehanding on them would not be as big an issue).

Regards from Scotland

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

I'm afraid I still don't understand
I usually don't grind to the edge but look at the new hollow and how close (very close) it gets to the edge, adjusting as neccesary. I also move the iron left and right continuosly. Overall I don't have a problem with the flat wheel, as flat as it is of course.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm afraid I still don't understand
I usually don't grind to the edge but look at the new hollow and how close (very close) it gets to the edge, adjusting as neccesary. I also move the iron left and right continuosly. Overall I don't have a problem with the flat wheel, as flat as it is of course.

Moskowitz recommends a crowned wheel to avoid heat concentrations at the corners, not for control. This is explained in a sidebar on the second page of the article (I just went and looked at it).

It's a real issue. If you look at the DW video that somebody linked earlier in this thread you can see from his sparks that he's doing a lot of work along the left edge of the wheel. That's potentially flirting with disaster because if he tilts the tool too far it will lead to increased grinding pressure and therefore heat concentration, because all of the normal force will be concentrated on the wheel's corner instead of across the surface. You can get burning even with a relatively light touch that way if you're also working the corner/edge of the tool where effective thermal mass and conductivity are at their worst. Crowning the wheel makes it harder to get into that situation in the sense that you have a wider range of safe angles to work with.

[Mel Fulks]

All of these things can be helpful but there is a difference between the techniques that require acquired skill and the tecniques that are useful without much skill. Saw a guy carving some stuff the other day BY HAND! Guess he just can't afford a CNC machine.

[Pat Barry]

Moskowitz recommends a crowned wheel to avoid heat concentrations at the corners, not for control. This is explained in a sidebar on the second page of the article (I just went and looked at it).

It's a real issue. If you look at the DW video that somebody linked earlier in this thread you can see from his sparks that he's doing a lot of work along the left edge of the wheel. That's potentially flirting with disaster because if he tilts the tool too far it will lead to increased grinding pressure and therefore heat concentration, because all of the normal force will be concentrated on the wheel's corner instead of across the surface. You can get burning even with a relatively light touch that way if you're also working the corner/edge of the tool where effective thermal mass and conductivity are at their worst. Crowning the wheel makes it harder to get into that situation in the sense that you have a wider range of safe angles to work with.

Great feedback Patrick - maybe you could provide a link to your own video demonstrating the proper way to do this? I'm sure we will all be thoroughly engrossed by it and sincerely appreciative.

[Steve Voigt]

Pat, I'm all in favor of people posting their work, but this has to be the all-time record for the pot calling the kettle black. You constantly argue with people about the correct way to do things, what type of shooting board is best, and on and on. Have you ever posted a single photo of your work, here or anywhere?

Let's recap your contributions to this thread.

First, you referred to David's video (a very fine video, by the way; contra some here I cannot find anything to criticize) as "almost comical," "basically just a load of hooey," and that "he must get paid by the minute" (I can say for sure that David doesn't make a dime from them).
Then you lashed out at others for criticizing you, and demanded they produce videos, after you had just made fun of David's. Surely even you see the irony here? Kees actually took you seriously and posted his video; I notice you didn't bother to thank him or acknowledge him. Instead, you continue to hound others, demanding videos.

I think that's an accurate summary; did I miss anything? Is there anything substantive you've actually added to this or any other thread? If not, maybe you could just sit back and try to learn something, instead of insisting that elementary woodworking skills are impossible. If you had taken the time to read some of the responses, you would see that they actually answered all your questions, despite a (justifiably) sharp tone.

[Pat Barry]

Pat, I'm all in favor of people posting their work, but this has to be the all-time record for the pot calling the kettle black. You constantly argue with people about the correct way to do things, what type of shooting board is best, and on and on. Have you ever posted a single photo of your work, here or anywhere?

Let's recap your contributions to this thread.

First, you referred to David's video (a very fine video, by the way; contra some here I cannot find anything to criticize) as "almost comical," "basically just a load of hooey," and that "he must get paid by the minute" (I can say for sure that David doesn't make a dime from them).
Then you lashed out at others for criticizing you, and demanded they produce videos, after you had just made fun of David's. Surely even you see the irony here? Kees actually took you seriously and posted his video; I notice you didn't bother to thank him or acknowledge him. Instead, you continue to hound others, demanding videos.

I think that's an accurate summary; did I miss anything? Is there anything substantive you've actually added to this or any other thread? If not, maybe you could just sit back and try to learn something, instead of insisting that elementary woodworking skills are impossible. If you had taken the time to read some of the responses, you would see that they actually answered all your questions, despite a (justifiably) sharp tone.

You are absolutely correct about Kee's video. I watched it twice, thought it was well done, and am very grateful thhat he posted it and I do sincerely apologize to Kees for not saying so earlier, so good on you for bringing this to my attention.

As regards my point with respect to certain experts here - not calling you out on this because you have posted some of your own work - I stand behind my comments 100%. I'd like to see them put up or shut up.

As regards my own work - yes I have posted it in the Projects forum, just not in this forum because I felt it was not neander enough to satisfy the crowd here. My work consists of using all the the tools I have, whether corded or not, to do my work. Note recently a posted a Christmas gift project I completed recently titled "pizza peels for Christmas" in the Projects forum - feel free to view it and to critique it as you see fit. I suuppose I coud have posted it in the Neander forum but like I said i used more than just Neander techniques to build them. Previous to that I posted a an end grain cutting project that i made using cut-off scraps from my workbench project, and prior to that I posted my workbench project also on an SC forum, thanks for asking. I'm sure you can do a quick search and find them. In fact - feel free to let me know your critique on those projects as well.

I don't work all that quickly but I do actually do woodworking for a purpose so I apologize if the volume of my own work isn't on par with Brian's, or Derek's or Steven's for example.

I don't just sit on the fence and throw snide comments in peoples directions, in fact I sincerely believe that the overwhelming number of posts of I have done in my 5 + years as a member / contributor here at SC have been entirely positive - I'll leave it to you to search them all up and do the statistics. In fact go ahead and publish your findings when you do so.

I do perceive in your own response above maybe just a hint of condescending tone and frankly I've had it with that sort of thing from many responders (not all by the way, in fact its a very limited few), but that's precisely why I pointed out the lack of substantive woodworking from some of them.

Once again, my apologies to Kees - I hope you see this Kees and accept my gratitude and apology for not replying sooner.

[Kees Heiden]

Hey no need for apologies! I'm glad you liked it.