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Thread: Help Me Evolve My Sharpening: Scary Sharpish to Sharpton + Naniwa Snow White

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    I use the same CBN wheel that David does in that video, but this discussion has been more about stones for not only final honing, but for flattening the backs of chisels and plane irons. I believe Brian here has one of David's planes, but ask him if he goes farther than David on sharpening other things. David has been as big a stone Ho as any of us, but likes that way for what he does. What we all do, and want from our edges, varies. Most of my iron and chisel edges have not touched the grinder in a Long time.
    Hah! I didn't look closely and failed to notice that was DW's video. I stand by my contention that he's not doing a very good job of distributing the grinding across the wheel, but obviously the guy knows his sh*t. His work with cap irons in particular has helped a lot of people, me included.

    The reason I was flippant about that post is because it was so obviously irrelevant to the OP's situation. The only reason I even brought up coarse stones in this thread was to explain why people with diamond plates have to break out the loose SiC every so often.

    I too am an epic, irremediable sharpening ho. To wit:

    80, 180, and 600 grit CBN wheels
    Sigma Power 120, 400, 700 3F Carbon, 1000 hard, 2K, 6K, 13K (the 13K was rebranded an S-II)
    Sigma Select II 240, 1000, 1200, 3K, 6K, 10K
    Shapton Pro 120, 220, 320, 1000, 1500, 2K, 5K, 8K, 15K
    Shapton Glass 500 "2X" (the one with 10 mm of stone)
    Suehiro Cerax 320 (the 50 mm thick one. Better than any of the coarse Shaptons...)
    Bester 220, 400, 700, 1200, 2000
    Imanishi 4K, 8K
    Naniwa Snow White 8K
    Takeshi Kuroda 10K mystery resin stone (a VERY good stone for the money, as DW himself pointed out)
    Tormek T7
    Delta variable-speed 8" grinder (with Norton 3X AlOx wheels)
    Rikon half-speed grinder (with CBN wheels)
    Norton translucent Arkansas (the 3/4" thick one that Joel peddles)
    Norton combo India stone
    Dan's soft and hard-black Arkansas
    Atoma #140, #400, #600, and #1200 plates, including duplicates of the #140 and #400 so that I can dedicate one of each for flattening and metal
    Assorted DMT and Eze-Lap plates, though I've been giving those away to friends now that I'm using Atomas
    Shapton glass diamond plate
    A large assortment of diamond, AlOx, and chromium dioxide lapping films, both PSA and plain
    A large assortment of diamond pastes and mild steel plates
    An assortment of SiC and AlOx grits for lapping

    I know I'm missing some stuff, but you get the idea. Some of the stones listed above have been mostly worn down and then converted to slips.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-03-2016 at 12:40 AM. Reason: Oops, missed a stone :-)

  2. #32
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    What, no 1x42 belt sander!? I have one, but only use it working on golf clubs.

    Just as another "what I do", whether it matters to anyone or not, but in reference to the way David grinds almost everything with the rest at the same angle: I do grind various angles, but use the Veritas rest, which is easy to change, and set it quickly using a Stuart Batty gauge: http://www.woodworkersemporium.com/S...ing_MFR/AG_SET

    Since I evolved to honing the whole bevel with no micro-bevels, allowed with a progression of fast cutting stones, these edges rarely touch the grinder unless an edge gets damaged.
    Last edited by Tom M King; 01-03-2016 at 8:53 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene Davis View Post
    You need to watch this video, by a guy that makes wooden hand planes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byDNeehIfmw
    This video is made by someone, I think, who professes to setting his chip breaker within just a few thou of the plane edge in order to get minimized tearout, yet he totally freehands the grinding and honing process. I find that to be almost comical. There is no way I can reconcile those two things. At least he could have demonstrated the manner in which he is able to get the precision of the edge squareness required to result in the ability to use the closely set chip breaker effectively. It would also have been interesting to see how he would freehand the convex radius on the plane edge. It is funny at the end with the obligatory, albeit invisible, hair shaving demo.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    What, no 1x42 belt sander!? I have one, but only use it working on golf clubs.

    Just as another "what I do", whether it matters to anyone or not, but in reference to the way David grinds almost everything with the rest at the same angle: I do grind various angles, but use the Veritas rest, which is easy to change, and set it quickly using a Stuart Batty gauge: http://www.woodworkersemporium.com/S...ing_MFR/AG_SET

    Since I evolved to honing the whole bevel with no micro-bevels, allowed with a progression of fast cutting stones, these edges rarely touch the grinder unless an edge gets damaged.
    1x30 cheapo Harbor Freight special, with an assortment of belts. Like you I don't use that so much for tool-grinding. 3M makes CBN belts, though I've never tried them...

    I use a combination of Veritas tool rests and the Tormek grinding HW. I basically use Chalesworth's "triple-bevel" strategy (primary from grinder, secondary from coarse stone, tertiary from polisher).

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    This video is made by someone, I think, who professes to setting his chip breaker within just a few thou of the plane edge in order to get minimized tearout, yet he totally freehands the grinding and honing process. I find that to be almost comical. There is no way I can reconcile those two things. At least he could have demonstrated the manner in which he is able to get the precision of the edge squareness required to result in the ability to use the closely set chip breaker effectively. It would also have been interesting to see how he would freehand the convex radius on the plane edge. It is funny at the end with the obligatory, albeit invisible, hair shaving demo.
    He sets back by a couple tenths of an mm, which is ~8 mils.

    It's possible to do that using his method. The key thing, and he says this in the video, is that the edge profile is entirely established by hand-grinding. He only uses the grinder for material removal in the bevel and never lets it reach the edge. I actually do the same thing with my smoother and jointer blades (jacks, fores, and Scrubs with radiused blades are another matter). I then use my bevel guide with a straight roller to establish the edge, and then swap in a cambered roller to polish and ease the corners by a couple/few mils. There is no reason why a sufficiently skilled sharpener couldn't do the last 2 steps freehand and still get the edge within a couple mils of straight.

    Now we're REALLY off-topic relative to what the OP asked...
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-03-2016 at 1:06 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Heiden View Post
    Loose Silicone grit works very well for flattening stones, but it is also very messy. Very.
    Is "silicone grit" what you get by chopping up cured RTV? :-)

    Sorry, I finally noticed this and couldn't resist.

  7. #37
    I agree, its not that hard. Its mostly a body control thing or proprioception, especially in the beginning, sort of like it is hard for little kids to hop on one leg and then finally they do it easily once brain-leg connection is properly established. So in the beginning it has to be trained, like anything else.
    I find that small hammer taps help for precisely getting breaker close enough.
    Little taps should not be underestimated, e.g. they are as effective to adjust marking gauge as fancy microadjust nuts and usually quicker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    He sets back by a couple tenths of an mm, which is ~8 mils.

    It's possible to do that using his method. The key thing, and he says this in the video, is that the edge profile is entirely established by hand-grinding. He only uses the grinder for material removal in the bevel and never lets it reach the edge. I actually do the same thing with my smoother and jointer blades (jacks, fores, and Scrubs with radiused blades are another matter). I then use my bevel guide with a straight roller to establish the edge, and then swap in a cambered roller to polish and ease the corners by a couple/few mils. There is no reason why a sufficiently skilled sharpener couldn't do the last 2 steps freehand and still get the edge within a couple mils of straight.

    Now we're REALLY off-topic relative to what the OP asked...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    Hah! I didn't look closely and failed to notice that was DW's video. I stand by my contention that he's not doing a very good job of distributing the grinding across the wheel, but obviously the guy knows his sh*t. His work with cap irons in particular has helped a lot of people, me included.

    The reason I was flippant about that post is because it was so obviously irrelevant to the OP's situation. The only reason I even brought up coarse stones in this thread was to explain why people with diamond plates have to break out the loose SiC every so often.

    I too am an epic, irremediable sharpening ho. To wit:

    80, 180, and 600 grit CBN wheels
    Sigma Power 120, 400, 700 3F Carbon, 1000 hard, 2K, 6K, 13K (the 13K was rebranded an S-II)
    Sigma Select II 240, 1000, 1200, 3K, 6K, 10K
    Shapton Pro 120, 220, 320, 1000, 1500, 2K, 5K, 8K, 15K
    Shapton Glass 500 "2X" (the one with 10 mm of stone)
    Suehiro Cerax 320 (the 50 mm thick one. Better than any of the coarse Shaptons...)
    Bester 220, 400, 700, 1200, 2000
    Imanishi 4K, 8K
    Naniwa Snow White 8K
    Takeshi Kuroda 10K mystery resin stone (a VERY good stone for the money, as DW himself pointed out)
    Tormek T7
    Delta variable-speed 8" grinder (with Norton 3X AlOx wheels)
    Rikon half-speed grinder (with CBN wheels)
    Norton translucent Arkansas (the 3/4" thick one that Joel peddles)
    Norton combo India stone
    Dan's soft and hard-black Arkansas
    Atoma #140, #400, #600, and #1200 plates, including duplicates of the #140 and #400 so that I can dedicate one of each for flattening and metal
    Assorted DMT and Eze-Lap plates, though I've been giving those away to friends now that I'm using Atomas
    Shapton glass diamond plate
    A large assortment of diamond, AlOx, and chromium dioxide lapping films, both PSA and plain
    A large assortment of diamond pastes and mild steel plates
    An assortment of SiC and AlOx grits for lapping

    I know I'm missing some stuff, but you get the idea. Some of the stones listed above have been mostly worn down and then converted to slips.
    No dual stones? no Choseras?? you obviously can't get a edge truly sharp with the stuff you have....

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew N. Masail View Post
    No dual stones? no Choseras?? you obviously can't get a edge truly sharp with the stuff you have....
    Yeah, you're right, and that's what I tell my wife: "Honey, clearly this piece didn't come out perfectly because we haven't allocated enough of our community property for tools and/or sharpening media".

    For some reason she doesn't buy it.

    Seriously, one has to draw the line somewhere. Choseras, Suehiro Gokumyos, Shapton Glass, the 30K Shapton Pro, and natural waterstones all fall under my "value threshold". Of course you could argue that some of the other stuff I listed is equally questionable. Humans are irrational beasts...
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-03-2016 at 4:30 PM.

  10. #40
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    I've tried maybe as much stones as you have, spent maybe 1\4 because I didn't go mad with diamond stuff and arkensas (not that that's bad at all). I sold off what I don't consider to be "user" stones, because in all honestly getting good with the stones you use has much more value than what the stone actually is, which is why I choose my stones based on things that aren't "performance" - like the dual stones are about as messy as oil stones but no oil, and stay flat about like an India stone too! the Sigma select II is the only 10K stone I've used that feels nice and hardly loads at all (create a tad of slurry) . I have 5 water stones left, in the end, I'll have maybe 8. how many do I need.... two? I'm happy to pay 300$ for those two stones, not so happy to pay 300$ for stones that leave me Wishing for something else. problem is putting down the cash to find out what you prefer... I do consider Fine India slips to be a fine investment, as well as a India combo, jury is still out on the black Arkensas.

    Here's a challenge - choose a couple of stones that you want to be your main users, and use nothing else for 3 months.

    I got stuck with a dual stone 500 diamond plate and a dual stone 1000 grit stone (will polish) at work for over 6 months... no sink and needed something portable. they are all I use in that studio, and you know what, I've become very proficient and getting a razor edge quickly on everything I need, including A2 blades which at first gave me a little trouble. no grinder either, so I freehand the primary bevel on a large belt sander, making it a convex bevel. I've learnt a lot about practicality thanks to this.
    Last edited by Matthew N. Masail; 01-03-2016 at 4:57 PM.

  11. #41
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    I think Stu knows Patrick and Matthew by their first names.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinis Kanders View Post
    I agree, its not that hard. Its mostly a body control thing or proprioception.
    Are you saying its not hard to freehand grind the edge of a 2 inch wide plane blade to with a few thou of being perfectly square across? I disagree with that. If you notice he just went at it and never even checked the squareness of the finished edge. Basically just a load of hooey with a whole lot of inconsequential talk thrown in. He must get paid by the minute to make these video's.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    Are you saying its not hard to freehand grind the edge of a 2 inch wide plane blade to with a few thou of being perfectly square across? I disagree with that. If you notice he just went at it and never even checked the squareness of the finished edge. Basically just a load of hooey with a whole lot of inconsequential talk thrown in. He must get paid by the minute to make these video's.
    As he said in the video and as I already wrote above, he doesn't let the grinder remove material from or otherwise shape the cutting edge. He does that by hand on a bench stone, as do I. The purpose of the grinder in such a workflow is to relieve the bevel and make hand-honing of the edge go faster. Given that process it's entirely feasible to keep the edge within a couple mils of straight, provided your bench stones are flat.

    It really isn't hard to understand if you actually take a second to listen to what others are saying instead of compulsively spurting your own "hooey".

    EDIT: Even if he did grind to the edge, he could still get a straight edge by hand-honing afterwards. It doesn't need to be "perfectly square" - cap irons are somewhat adjustable in rotation, as any idiot can plainly see. There's a reason they were designed that way...
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-03-2016 at 7:00 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    He must get paid by the minute to make these video's.
    By the way, PM me if you want to know how YouTube monetization actually works.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    As he said in the video and as I already wrote above, he doesn't let the grinder remove material from or otherwise shape the cutting edge. He does that by hand on a bench stone, as do I. The purpose of the grinder in such a workflow is to relieve the bevel and make hand-honing of the edge go faster. Given that process it's entirely feasible to keep the edge within a couple mils of straight, provided your bench stones are flat.

    It really isn't hard to understand if you actually take a second to listen to what others are saying instead of compulsively spurting your own "hooey".

    EDIT: Even if he did grind to the edge, he could still get a straight edge by hand-honing afterwards. It doesn't need to be "perfectly square" - cap irons are somewhat adjustable in rotation, as any idiot can plainly see. There's a reason they were designed that way...
    Thanks so much for your brilliant observations.

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