Glowforge release

[Matt McCoy]

Didn't they get something like ten million dollars in venture capital? Hard to believe that they were able to raise that much money only expecting to produce a few hundred units.

They expected to produce about a 1,000 to 2,000 units.

Tony W. (Co-founder): "Internally, we thought we could hit $2M in sales and talked about calling it a “high five success” if we hit $5M."

The campaign was around $10M.

[Doug Griffith]

So the "Refund Policy" won't be published until units start shipping. The "Terms of Service" is not published yet either (only the "Terms and Conditions for Online Offers to Purchase" is). The "Limited Warranty" is not published either (the page doesn't even exist - 404 error). Note that there is a distinct difference in how the verbiage is referred to ("these Terms" vs. "Terms of Service") throughout the terms. If the unavailable "Terms of Service" is violated, the unavailable "Refund Policy" based on the unavailable "Limited Warranty" applies.


So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get.


The below is direct from Glowforge's "Terms and Conditions for Online Offers to Purchase":


Section 9:
The Products will not work without an Internet connection and an account on the Glowforge Service. Use of the Glowforge Service is subject to the Glowforge Terms of Service. If you violate the Glowforge Terms of Service, you may not be able to use the Product or certain features of the Glowforge Product. Glowforge will not be liable for your inability to use the Product, and your sole and exclusive remedy will be to request a refund if allowed by the Glowforge Refund Policy, described in Section 4.


Section 4:
If you request a refund at any time before we accept your pre-order, we will process it promptly, and we will refund the full amount you paid. Once you provide your shipping address and we have accepted your offer, the policy in the immediately preceding sentence no longer applies. Instead, Glowforge’s refund policy and limited warranties will apply. The Glowforge refund policy will be published on the Glowforge website at the time when Glowforge begins shipping Products (“Refund Policy”). For further information on Glowforge’s limited warranties, please see Section 11 of these Terms.


Section 11:
Limited Warranty and Disclaimer. Glowforge will be providing the details of its limited warranties for Products on Glowforge’s website at glowforge.com/warranty before Glowforge requests your shipping address and accepts your offer to purchase. By providing your shipping address to us, you acknowledge and agree that you have reviewed the limited warranty for the Product you offered to purchase, and that you accept that limited warranty. Glowforge will also provide the warranty terms for a Product together with the shipped Product. If you are dissatisfied with the warranty terms once published, you may contact Glowforge Support to rescind your pre-order and we will refund the amount you paid in connection with your pre-order in full. EXCEPT AS MAY BE EXPRESSLY PROVIDED BY GLOWFORGE IN THE WARRANTY APPLICABLE TO A PRODUCT AT THE TIME THE ORDER FOR THE PRODUCT IS ACCEPTED, AND TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, PRODUCTS ARE PROVIDED “AS IS” AND “AS AVAILABLE”, WITH ALL FAULTS AND WITHOUT GUARANTEED WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, AND GLOWFORGE HEREBY DISCLAIMS ALL OTHER WARRANTIES WITH RESPECT TO THE PRODUCT, WHETHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO: (A) THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ACCURACY, QUIET ENJOYMENT, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS; AND (B) ANY WARRANTY ARISING OUT OF COURSE OF DEALING, USAGE, OR TRADE. GLOWFORGE DOES NOT WARRANT THAT USE OF ANY PRODUCT WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR FREE OF ERRORS OR OTHER HARMFUL COMPONENTS, AND DOES NOT WARRANT THAT ANY OF THOSE ISSUES WILL BE CORRECTED. GLOWFORGE DOES NOT WARRANT THAT ANY PRODUCT COMPLIES WITH ALL APPLICABLE LAWS OR REGULATIONS IN ANY PARTICULAR JURISDICTION. TO THE EXTENT NOT PROHIBITED BY APPLICABLE LAW, YOU ASSUME ALL RISK FOR ANY DAMAGE THAT MAY RESULT FROM YOUR USE OF THE PRODUCT.

[Lee DeRaud]

Section 11:
Limited Warranty and Disclaimer. Glowforge will be providing the details of its limited warranties for Products on Glowforge’s website at glowforge.com/warranty before Glowforge requests your shipping address and accepts your offer to purchase. By providing your shipping address to us, you acknowledge and agree that you have reviewed the limited warranty for the Product you offered to purchase, and that you accept that limited warranty. Glowforge will also provide the warranty terms for a Product together with the shipped Product. If you are dissatisfied with the warranty terms once published, you may contact Glowforge Support to rescind your pre-order and we will refund the amount you paid in connection with your pre-order in full. EXCEPT AS MAY BE EXPRESSLY PROVIDED BY GLOWFORGE IN THE WARRANTY APPLICABLE TO A PRODUCT AT THE TIME THE ORDER FOR THE PRODUCT IS ACCEPTED, AND TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, PRODUCTS ARE PROVIDED “AS IS” AND “AS AVAILABLE”, WITH ALL FAULTS AND WITHOUT GUARANTEED WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, AND GLOWFORGE HEREBY DISCLAIMS ALL OTHER WARRANTIES WITH RESPECT TO THE PRODUCT, WHETHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO: (A) THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ACCURACY, QUIET ENJOYMENT, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS; AND (B) ANY WARRANTY ARISING OUT OF COURSE OF DEALING, USAGE, OR TRADE. GLOWFORGE DOES NOT WARRANT THAT USE OF ANY PRODUCT WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR FREE OF ERRORS OR OTHER HARMFUL COMPONENTS, AND DOES NOT WARRANT THAT ANY OF THOSE ISSUES WILL BE CORRECTED. GLOWFORGE DOES NOT WARRANT THAT ANY PRODUCT COMPLIES WITH ALL APPLICABLE LAWS OR REGULATIONS IN ANY PARTICULAR JURISDICTION. TO THE EXTENT NOT PROHIBITED BY APPLICABLE LAW, YOU ASSUME ALL RISK FOR ANY DAMAGE THAT MAY RESULT FROM YOUR USE OF THE PRODUCT.

The phrase running through my head as I read that is "quantum warranty". The terms are like Schrodinger's cat, neither applicable nor inapplicable until such time as the product's wave function collapses to some state corresponding to reality.

IANAL, so I will refrain from commenting on some of the more obvious legal howlers in that paragraph, except to note that, since it states that the product itself need not comply with all (any?) of the applicable laws in whatever jurisdiction the purchaser resides in, one cannot expect the warranty itself to do so. You sort of have to wonder why they even bothered to put that on the web site.

[David Somers]

Lee, I love the Schroedinger's Cat warrantee! That is how it reads. Pretty amusing.

I have to admit, that since they are a local, Seattle company I am routing for them, but as I keep reading what is in the news and their various statements I am dubious to say the least. I am not a bleeding edge kind of buyer most of the time, and in their case I would certainly wait for a considerable time to see how the product pans out before considering them. Assuming I didn't already have a laser in my garage to begin with.

My best wishes to the cat!!

Dave

[Rich Harman]

They expected to produce about a 1,000 to 2,000 units.

Tony W. (Co-founder): "Internally, we thought we could hit $2M in sales and talked about calling it a “high five success” if we hit $5M."

The campaign was around $10M.

They raised $9 million before they started the pre-sales "campaign".

$9,000K for one or two thousand units??? I think their (true) expectations were much higher than that. Everything Glowforge has done has been working towards a home-run marketing campaign. To say they thought they would only sell a max of two thousand units does not mesh well with I consider to be reality.

In my opinion, the comments of how surprised they are that they got so much interest is just more marketing. Consider the previous success that Dan S has had with crowdfunding, the knowledge of how widespread lasers are becoming, the popularity of makerspaces and the maker "movement", the $9 million that other people invested in the idea and it becomes implausible that they truly thought one or two thousand units would have been a success.

[Jason Hilton]

So the "Refund Policy" won't be published until units start shipping. The "Terms of Service" is not published yet either (only the "Terms and Conditions for Online Offers to Purchase" is). The "Limited Warranty" is not published either (the page doesn't even exist - 404 error). Note that there is a distinct difference in how the verbiage is referred to ("these Terms" vs. "Terms of Service") throughout the terms. If the unavailable "Terms of Service" is violated, the unavailable "Refund Policy" based on the unavailable "Limited Warranty" applies.


So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get.

Your conclusion isn't supported in any way based on the available information (which you posted), and that's the problem with this whole discussion. You're all making sky-is-falling judgements based on no information.

[Doug Griffith]

I have no conclusion except that their terms of service, warranty, and return policy are non-existant. Please prove me wrong.

[Dan Hintz]

The phrase running through my head as I read that is "quantum warranty". The terms are like Schrodinger's cat, neither applicable nor inapplicable until such time as the product's wave function collapses to some state corresponding to reality.

This brought tears of joy to my eyes, Lee

[Dave Sheldrake]

I see the "Crowdfund Insider" that Scott posted is still propagating the myth that this machine is in any way a 3-D device.

I'm not around much due to serious family illness but I can suggest why this may be? (for the UK and EU)

A "Laser cutter" and a "Laser Machine" for the purposes of UIN are 8456100000 and are subject to stringent control requirements such as the fitting of E-Stops etc as well as very strict control of where and who can use them.

A laser *printer* is covered as "Office equipment" and has a far far lower requirement to meet to pass regulations as well as being able to be sited in areas that a Laser Machine would be prohibited in.

[Gary Hair]

I'm not around much due to serious family illness but I can suggest why this may be? (for the UK and EU)

A "Laser cutter" and a "Laser Machine" for the purposes of UIN are 8456100000 and are subject to stringent control requirements such as the fitting of E-Stops etc as well as very strict control of where and who can use them.

A laser *printer* is covered as "Office equipment" and has a far far lower requirement to meet to pass regulations as well as being able to be sited in areas that a Laser Machine would be prohibited in.

A rose by any other name is still a rose...

[Bert Kemp]

Isn't calling this a laser printer an out right LIE? a laser printer is like you said office equipment. it uses toner or ink or something and prints words and pictures and stuff on paper and like material. A Laser printer doesn't engrave or cut paper, wood , leather and such.
Just because you name something that it isn't doesn't make it so. Its still a laser that cuts and engraves and should be held to those standards by the countries that it being imported to.

I'm not around much due to serious family illness but I can suggest why this may be? (for the UK and EU)

A "Laser cutter" and a "Laser Machine" for the purposes of UIN are 8456100000 and are subject to stringent control requirements such as the fitting of E-Stops etc as well as very strict control of where and who can use them.

A laser *printer* is covered as "Office equipment" and has a far far lower requirement to meet to pass regulations as well as being able to be sited in areas that a Laser Machine would be prohibited in.

[Matt McCoy]

I'm not around much due to serious family illness but I can suggest why this may be? (for the UK and EU)

A "Laser cutter" and a "Laser Machine" for the purposes of UIN are 8456100000 and are subject to stringent control requirements such as the fitting of E-Stops etc as well as very strict control of where and who can use them.

A laser *printer* is covered as "Office equipment" and has a far far lower requirement to meet to pass regulations as well as being able to be sited in areas that a Laser Machine would be prohibited in.

All the best for you and your family Dave. There are two models: Basic (Class 1) and Pro (Class 4). Does this theory still apply and how does that affect their largest market (U.S.)?

[Jason Hilton]

You MADE a conclusion, which I quoted...

I have no conclusion except that their terms of service, warranty, and return policy are non-existant. Please prove me wrong.

[Rich Harman]

I see the "Crowdfund Insider" that Scott posted is still propagating the myth that this machine is in any way a 3-D device.

I believe Dan S. when he explained that they chose to call it a 3D Laser Printer in order to convey to the average person what it's capabilities are. A 3D printer is not actually a printer but that doesn't stop anyone from calling it that.

Even my sons, who were raised to be technically accurate, still accidentally refer to what my laser does as "printing". When I was mentoring a FIRST team, the students were constantly asking me to "print" things with my laser. In both cases I always correct them, and it has helped, but not eliminated the term from being misapplied.

For the record, I do not support their decision to call it a 3D Laser Printer, I am against dumbing things down in order to cater to those that don't care to learn.

[Kev Williams]

This thread is good for a chuckle for me, just because of the varying opinions -- of which I have many myself

As to 3D... Even a postage stamp is '3-dimensional'. If you print anything on one side only, that's 2-dimensional printing. If you print on any other sides, you've now accomplished 3-dimensional printing.... or lasering, or engraving, and even "etching" has been called into question so I really don't care what you call it!

Dan made himself a leather briefcase with a Glowforge. I'm pretty sure a briefcase is 3-dimensional... ?

If I'm not mistaken (and I may well be ) what actually wouldn't be possible is '1-dimensional' or '4-dimensional' printing.