Glowforge release

[Doug Griffith]

you are aligning yourself with those that have said that cloud-based motion control was impossible, that this would be vaporware, it is a rebadged K40, using off-the-shelf parts, will require a subscription to operate, will need proprietary cartidges, will require proprietary materials, will be overly complicated for women, more dangerous than other lasers, and many more.

Hey, I said all these things and I'm offended!

cloud-based motion control was impossible <- not impossible but potentially crippling which it still is

that this would be vaporware <- still is until they ship production units

it is a rebadged K40 <- this might be a good thing

using off-the-shelf parts <- this might also be a good thing

will require a subscription to operate <- being cloud based is pretty darn close

will need proprietary cartidges <- not cartridges but the tube

will require proprietary materials <- not required but their "proofgrade materials" have special features designed just for the GF.

will be overly complicated for women <- huh?

more dangerous than other lasers <- they are made of plastic and promoted as being used in the kitchen without ventilation so...

and many more <- yep

[Scott Shepherd]

Good morning Steve. It appears you are debating yourself. The onus is always on the one offering a critique or proclamation. Unless you're a fervent Tweeter. Sad! When you posit that GF incorrectly (probably) sold 2,000 units and that they don't care about those early customers and that those naive customers are not enlightened enough to realize that the founders may build a company that they might cash out further down the road, you are not offering that as a positive opinion. Your statement, "I'm not sure their current customer base realize that's the intent" can not be followed up with "What a nice benefit and how lucky are they -- everyone is a winner!" You're implying (whether you realize it or not) naivete or deception of their base.

Anyone following along at home will not mistake your post history as supportive or generally positve toward anything GF related. You're even now doubling-down on that sentiment by attempting to round up a posse and state "...things dozens of us said were going to happen, have happened" while patting yourself on the back and taking a victory lap proclaiming "...my track record on this project is close to 100% being right." By doing this, you are aligning yourself with those that have said that cloud-based motion control was impossible, that this would be vaporware, it is a rebadged K40, using off-the-shelf parts, will require a subscription to operate, will need proprietary cartidges, will require proprietary materials, will be overly complicated for women, more dangerous than other lasers, and many more. Which of these do you want to add to your "dozens of us" dogpile and take credit for?

Back to my original opinion at the beginning of this current debate. It would be another day at the office if GF's founders parlayed a start-up into one that is attractive to a bigger buyer. I agreed with you while offering that it is likely not a bad outcome for them or their customers. So, I suppose we can take great pride in earning our Captain Obvious merit badges. Hope you're having a nice weekend.

Ahh Matt, good to see you've not lost the ability to completely find hidden meaning, messages, and intent in what people posted. That's a skill that I apparently haven't learned yet. It's very easy to read intent and run with it, but if the original poster said that wasn't the intent, then your entire premise is false, therefore, meaningless.

When I said "dozens of of predicted so much of this", and then you jump to the things people predicted that didn't happen, that doesn't make my statement false. I didn't say "dozens of us all agreed on every single topic posted". I said many of us have repeatedly said the things that would be problematic for them, and to date, they are still problematic. When we said you couldn't go from zero to delivering machines in the timeframe THEY said, who was right there? We were. The fact that almost 2 years later, they still haven't delivered, to most, would be game, set, and match in a discussion about who was correct on that point. However, some seem to be able to twist that into some mind boggling "everything is still on track, running just as expected" logic.

Most people also understand the use of generalizations to express their belief. That's what the 2,000 figure was. Why you chose to take that as literal instead of figurative, I don't know. I was expressing a point, the number was completely irrelevant. You could change the number to anything you want and it doesn't change the point I was making.

No need for you to assume my intent, if you think I intended to say or mean something just ask me to clarify and I'll gladly do so. It would save a lot of typing on both parts. You wouldn't have to type what you thought I meant and I wouldn't have to explain that wasn't what I meant when I typed it.

To date, they still haven't delivered production machines. I don't care if that's "normal" for startups, I don't care if that's "an average" for start ups, all I care about is comparing what THEY promised versus what THEY have delivered (or not delivered). That's factual data available, no opinions on intent needed.

I don't like or dislike their customers, I don't like or dislike the company. I can have opinions on the way I think this is going to play out. I do think it's a build a company and sell it play. Nothing devious with that. Do I think that that decision impacts the model they finally release? I do. I could be wrong, we will have to wait and see.

[Matt McCoy]

Hey, I said all these things and I'm offended!

cloud-based motion control was impossible <- not impossible but potentially crippling which it still is

The customers posting projects on their forum might disagree.

that this would be vaporware <- still is until they ship production units

I still have you down for one vaporware vote.

it is a rebadged K40 <- this might be a good thing

Good that it's a K40 clone (which is obviously known for its quality) or that it is good that it isn't? Either way, an admission that it is not a rebadged unit and an improvement of what has been the options for a 40 W desktop laser supports my narrative from day one.

using off-the-shelf parts <- this might also be a good thing

This has proven to not be true either. One of the strengths of glass-tubed machines is the parts are widely available, mostly interchangeable, and relatively inexpensive. I don't favor proprietary parts, unless it's a substantial improvement. The now-reversed reversal of end-user replaceable tubes was a head-scratching moment.

will require a subscription to operate <- being cloud based is pretty darn close

No, it's not and an incorrect early prediction.

will need proprietary cartidges <- not cartridges but the tube

Well, the term cartridge was used. This would be similar to a Rayjet or Zing, but under $500. I would prefer the option to source a tube. Too much of a markup for U.S. resellers of Chinese tubes.

will require proprietary materials <- not required but their "proofgrade materials" have special features designed just for the GF.

"Not required" is the operative phrase and makes a big difference from what was first predicted. I believe Trotec sells material for their machines suitable for their lasers. The proofgrade materials GF intends to sell will automatically adjust settings and will be read by the camera in its lid. However, one can use his/her own stock and adjust speed and power as needed.

will be overly complicated for women <- huh?

May not be attributed to you, but it's been said and implied around these parts.

more dangerous than other lasers <- they are made of plastic and promoted as being used in the kitchen without ventilation so...

The plastic housing has shielding. Smart folks in-the-know that have invested millions are good with this as well as the overly-cautious and litigious lawyers. Your analysis might differ. These are being sold with filter units or the option to brew your own (like every laser). To suggest that they are being promoted as safe to use in the kitchen without ventilation is a stretch.

While taking credit is admirable, not sure if what you contend is that you have been mostly correct while admitting you were wrong on the above predictions. Either way, I appreciate the debate and do hope you're not really offended. Certainly not meant that way.

[Matt McCoy]

Ahh Matt, good to see you've not lost the ability to completely find hidden meaning, messages, and intent in what people posted. That's a skill that I apparently haven't learned yet. It's very easy to read intent and run with it, but if the original poster said that wasn't the intent, then your entire premise is false, therefore, meaningless.

When I said "dozens of of predicted so much of this", and then you jump to the things people predicted that didn't happen, that doesn't make my statement false. I didn't say "dozens of us all agreed on every single topic posted". I said many of us have repeatedly said the things that would be problematic for them, and to date, they are still problematic. When we said you couldn't go from zero to delivering machines in the timeframe THEY said, who was right there? We were. The fact that almost 2 years later, they still haven't delivered, to most, would be game, set, and match in a discussion about who was correct on that point. However, some seem to be able to twist that into some mind boggling "everything is still on track, running just as expected" logic.

Most people also understand the use of generalizations to express their belief. That's what the 2,000 figure was. Why you chose to take that as literal instead of figurative, I don't know. I was expressing a point, the number was completely irrelevant. You could change the number to anything you want and it doesn't change the point I was making.

No need for you to assume my intent, if you think I intended to say or mean something just ask me to clarify and I'll gladly do so. It would save a lot of typing on both parts. You wouldn't have to type what you thought I meant and I wouldn't have to explain that wasn't what I meant when I typed it.

To date, they still haven't delivered production machines. I don't care if that's "normal" for startups, I don't care if that's "an average" for start ups, all I care about is comparing what THEY promised versus what THEY have delivered (or not delivered). That's factual data available, no opinions on intent needed.

I don't like or dislike their customers, I don't like or dislike the company. I can have opinions on the way I think this is going to play out. I do think it's a build a company and sell it play. Nothing devious with that. Do I think that that decision impacts the model they finally release? I do. I could be wrong, we will have to wait and see.

It's all good -- no worries.

[Kev Williams]

No need for you to assume my intent, if you think I intended to say or mean something just ask me to clarify and I'll gladly do so. It would save a lot of typing on both parts. You wouldn't have to type what you thought I meant and I wouldn't have to explain that wasn't what I meant when I typed it.

“ I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant”
---Alan Greenspan

(sorry)

[John Lifer]

I'm With Doug, I've said SEVERAL of these things, and I'm a bit offended, ...... NOT!
I stand by everything.
It is still a VAPORWARE product.
It won't work for a LOT of people as you need a stable internet connection to communicate otherwise it is less than a boat anchor.
And it will become WORTHLESS the minute support is lost. Not Worth Less, WORTHLESS!
It WILL rely on their proprietary items to work decently. and I think that is one of Dan's "selling Points" to the companies he will be pitching to later.
No, it is worse than a k40, the k40 exists and works. Most of the time at least.
I'm not worried about women using this thing, I DO worry that kids to young to know better MIGHT!
There is NO, I'll repeat, NO working air filter system nor extraction system in place for this thing!
Just imagine it vector cutting something you shouldn't be doing, Something with PVC in it! You can't remove the it from your kitchen fast enough!
There are other lasers that don't extract, but not many, especially a couple of thousand (uh, 10,000)

And I DO just like to look at some of the 'ideas' that folks are posting. info4 just posted "engraving on an IKEA cutting board"
Did she use a glowforge? is she one of the lucky ones that have the test machines?
Wow, it looks really nice! Maybe GF isn't so bad!

UH, NoPe, she's still waiting. Was Lasered at her local makerspace.......
HA! But no where does it say that, you have to look at her other posts to see shes' still waiting and she's learning to laser at the makerspace.
But I bet Dan LOVES her post!

I do hope they succeed,it is difficult, no, darn near impossible to create a new product nowadays without millions in capitol, but If it is to just sell off quickly to make a 'quick buck' (as this isn't a quick project), I'll be disappointed, but not surprised!
Unfortunately, a lot of folks will have lost a lot of $ so Dan can make a bunch!

[Doug Griffith]

Either way, I appreciate the debate and do hope you're not really offended. Certainly not meant that way.

Not offended at all.

#1 subjective
#2 true
#3 an improvement is yet to be seen since #2 holds true
#4 I agree
#5 not true now but wait and see. Being tied to the cloud keeps that option open. Things are done for a reason.
#6 this was a false prediction but is more or less the same as #7
#7 features were touted early on that ended up requiring their "proofgrade materials" introduced at a later date
#8 I do not remember any instances of this
#9 I don't know about you but I've seen images of it used in a kitchen without venting. That promo lasted many months.

[Matt McCoy]

I think you are right Scott, it was never about making a company that you will manage and make things forever. It is actually about just getting it going and selling... I hope no one will bite on this horse. Someone will get burnt and badly

“ I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant”
---Alan Greenspan

(sorry)

That's a good one.

Well, in this case, someone else also read Steve's post in the way I did (I have quoted it above). Unless getting burnt badly is a good thing. For example: "Man, you got burnt badly! You're so fortunate! Steve also used the compliment "pawns" to describe early backers. As in "That is a nice shirt. You look like a pawn!"

[Scott Shepherd]

That's a good one.

Well, in this case, someone else also read Steve's post in the way I did (I have quoted it above). Unless getting burnt badly is a good thing. For example: "Man, you got burnt badly! You're so fortunate! Steve also used the compliment "pawns" to describe early backers. As in "That is a nice shirt. You look like a pawn!"

Apparently I went to a public school and things have different meanings there.

Where did I suggest anyone was getting "burnt". Please don't suggest that I said things I didn't say. Not once did I say anyone was getting "burnt" or that anyone was being "ripped off". Quite the opposite, I've said 2 or 3 times now that I think the product is real, customers will be getting them soon, and when they start releasing them, they'll sell much greater numbers. How you twist that into me suggesting people are getting burned is baffling. In fact, all of those things are the very things you've been saying for 18 months. I agree with you and I'm wrong, I don't get it.

[Matt McCoy]

Apparently I went to a public school and things have different meanings there.

Where did I suggest anyone was getting "burnt". Please don't suggest that I said things I didn't say. Not once did I say anyone was getting "burnt" or that anyone was being "ripped off". Quite the opposite, I've said 2 or 3 times now that I think the product is real, customers will be getting them soon, and when they start releasing them, they'll sell much greater numbers. How you twist that into me suggesting people are getting burned is baffling.

You are misreading. I did not attribute the "burnt" quote to you (see post), but used it as an example to qualify that I'm not alone in how the tone of your original "pawns" post was taken. This is the word you used to describe GF's pre-order customers and suggests they are being used. There is no other way to deploy that term but to indicate a rube or victim that's being manipulated with no regard to their own benefit. In chess, it's the lowest value piece and is sacrificed as part of a strategy. It's a slight to any reasonable person and certainly not how you would want your customers described in regards to how your business treats them. Now before you reply with "Show me where I called my customers pawns -- I never said that!" please reread that again and substitute another fine and reputable business as the hypothetical example and determine how that would be interpreted.

In fact, all of those things are the very things you've been saying for 18 months. I agree with you...

Finally -- friends at last! I knew I liked you for some reason.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Laochecng (Shenhui) sold 8,300 machines last year

With 237 staff, 37 of those educated to Masters / PH.d in laser technologies from a 330,000 sq Ft factory.

The second they or any of the big names in China view GF as any kind of threat the tube supplies will dry up rapidly

[Jeanette Brewer]

I suspect Mr. Trotec and Mr. Epilog did the same thing and no longer drive to work at the factory, five years later.

I hate to butt in on this conversation but the three founders of Epilog Laser Corp. still drive to work at the factory every day -- with the exception of holidays & vacations, of course -- 29 years after they first opened the doors.

[Matt McCoy]

I hate to butt in on this conversation but the three founders of Epilog Laser Corp. still drive to work at the factory every day -- with the exception of holidays & vacations, of course -- 29 years after they first opened the doors.

Thanks for the info!

[Bert Kemp]

Very Good Kev LOL

I'm With Doug, I've said SEVERAL of these things, and I'm a bit offended, ...... NOT!
I stand by everything.
It is still a VAPORWARE product.
It won't work for a LOT of people as you need a stable internet connection to communicate otherwise it is less than a boat anchor.
And it will become WORTHLESS the minute support is lost. Not Worth Less, WORTHLESS!
It WILL rely on their proprietary items to work decently. and I think that is one of Dan's "selling Points" to the companies he will be pitching to later.
No, it is worse than a k40, the k40 exists and works. Most of the time at least.
I'm not worried about women using this thing, I DO worry that kids to young to know better MIGHT!
There is NO, I'll repeat, NO working air filter system nor extraction system in place for this thing!
Just imagine it vector cutting something you shouldn't be doing, Something with PVC in it! You can't remove the it from your kitchen fast enough!
There are other lasers that don't extract, but not many, especially a couple of thousand (uh, 10,000)

And I DO just like to look at some of the 'ideas' that folks are posting. info4 just posted "engraving on an IKEA cutting board"
Did she use a glowforge? is she one of the lucky ones that have the test machines?
Wow, it looks really nice! Maybe GF isn't so bad!

UH, NoPe, she's still waiting. Was Lasered at her local makerspace.......
HA! But no where does it say that, you have to look at her other posts to see shes' still waiting and she's learning to laser at the makerspace.
But I bet Dan LOVES her post!

I do hope they succeed,it is difficult, no, darn near impossible to create a new product nowadays without millions in capitol, but If it is to just sell off quickly to make a 'quick buck' (as this isn't a quick project), I'll be disappointed, but not surprised!
Unfortunately, a lot of folks will have lost a lot of $ so Dan can make a bunch!

[Bert Kemp]

If Scott is right about them selling off to a big company and I believe this is the most likely thing to happen. The final product will be nothing close to the original pitched product.
Any investors I hope will know about lasers or at least investigate lasers engravers to see what there buying. Hopefully they won't invest in a Plastic, cloud based, non ventilated , kitchen table top laser to be used by kids.