Glowforge release

[Jason Hilton]

Dave's is the most important post to digest. Professional laser businesses are NOT Glowforge's target market. Your concerns are NOT hobbiest concerns, because most GF purchasers aren't worried about how long it takes to produce 1000 trophy plates. They want an affordable tool that lets them be a little more efficient, accurate, and make things they couldn't make before.

Point taken but you are looking at it from a woodworker/machinist perspective. The audience isn't people that are likely to come here, or CNC Zone or perhaps are members of a maker space. My wife and her Aunt are good examples. They are both crafters and are good at it. in an analog world. Pens, paper, paint.Remember Tandy kits? McCall's drawers at the fabric store? This is aiming to be the modern equivalent of that, though at a much higher price tag. These people can create the art, but not operate the tools to convey that art in other forms. She can use the ULS at Techshop (with some help) where we started the business but the FSL we bought to bring it in house not a chance. There are many artisans in that same boat. Take me, or my dad or our granddaughter and it's different. Likely more like you. We use CNC tools, in fact the kid was raised on Autocad and Solidworks, CNC, 3D printing, laser. As easy as we think even one of those K40 cheapies are to use, there are many, many that are into crafting and are great artist but are totally stumped by the technology. I see that as what Glowforge is trying to target. One of the main questions is that market big enough.

[Lee DeRaud]

Point taken but you are looking at it from a woodworker/machinist perspective. The audience isn't people that are likely to come here, or CNC Zone or perhaps are members of a maker space. My wife and her Aunt are good examples. They are both crafters and are good at it. in an analog world. Pens, paper, paint.Remember Tandy kits? McCall's drawers at the fabric store? This is aiming to be the modern equivalent of that, though at a much higher price tag. These people can create the art, but not operate the tools to convey that art in other forms. She can use the ULS at Techshop (with some help) where we started the business but the FSL we bought to bring it in house not a chance. There are many artisans in that same boat. Take me, or my dad or our granddaughter and it's different. Likely more like you. We use CNC tools, in fact the kid was raised on Autocad and Solidworks, CNC, 3D printing, laser. As easy as we think even one of those K40 cheapies are to use, there are many, many that are into crafting and are great artist but are totally stumped by the technology. I see that as what Glowforge is trying to target. One of the main questions is that market big enough.

The process breaks down to two general pieces, call it "design" and "manufacture". What's striking me is, the people you just described can already handle the "design" part, right? Otherwise this really is a paint-by-numbers widget and the novelty will wear thin very quickly at a four-figure price point.

On the "manufacture" side, for the life of me, I don't see how someone who can operate a sewing machine competently can have any trouble at all learning to use a laser. Heck, the learning curve for knitting is an order of magnitude steeper than anything encountered in the laser world. I'm also flashing on a couple of seriously non-techie "crafter" types I know who, as it happens, own and successfully use vinyl cutting machines...how is a laser qualitatively different?

[Glen Monaghan]

...for the life of me, I don't see how someone who can operate a sewing machine competently can have any trouble at all learning to use a laser. Heck, the learning curve for knitting is an order of magnitude steeper than anything encountered in the laser world. I'm also flashing on a couple of seriously non-techie "crafter" types I know who, as it happens, own and successfully use vinyl cutting machines...how is a laser qualitatively different?

Well, according to SWMBO, the laser will burn your flesh and permanently blind you, so she won't have anything to do with it other than task me with using it to create her designs... But then, she won't reach behind a computer to operate a power switch or plug in a USB cable either, because it might electrocute her 8-/

[Dave Stevens-Vegas]

For about five years now I've been working out of several makerspaces, primarily the three Techshops in Silicon Valley and one at ASU in Chandler, AZ. What's important is creating, not so much the practice. The tool is a means to an end, not the focal point of the process. At one point we were in the spaces 12-14 hours a day. I saw the same sort of issues not only with the laser but with the 3D printers (which is our current business has shipped kits and parts for more than 6000 machines in the last 3 years), the Shopbots, Flow and Tormach. When one looks at what different communities are discussing, Reddit, Google + and other communities one aspect that is common is the overall user experience and how that can be streamlined. They want what the machine makes, not so much to become an expert in how the machine works. Many in the maker spaces, particularly at the four we visit are also prototyping business ideas. From cutting custom packaging inserts to order for a project for Dell based on what you order to wearables, leather goods and plain ol' art. Many of the ideas and products you see in tech have come from prototypes built in the Bay Area Techshops including the Square card reader for mobile phones and the original Nest devices.

There absolutely is demand for a better user experience with the machine doing the file prep and machine config as need with little no intervention from the operator other than the design and required material. As for the $4k price point I think it remains to be seen what the overall market is though companies like FSL and Rabbit are able to sell the 20x12 machines for a few grand and don't seem to be doing to badly. As I said before I'm not sold on the software as a service as the sole model for using the machine. And that's coming from someone that survived Web 1.0, the turn of the century Dot Com bust and is now working on connected devices.

[Lee DeRaud]

There absolutely is demand for a better user experience with the machine doing the file prep and machine config as need with little no intervention from the operator other than the design and required material.

Ok, maybe I'm spoiled by using a "high-end" (by FSL/Rabbit/GF standards): just how bad is the "user experience" for the low-end machines? Because with the software I got with my ULS 11 years ago, it's about as complicated as printing a photo to an ink-jet printer, with comparable success rates for the end product.

[Bert Kemp]

Yea I really don't see were the user experience is going to be that much different then running any other laser . except its going to be a lot slower having to stop every few min's so it can cool down. The hardest part about my Rabbit is doing the design work in corel. Once that's done I just send it to the laser and let it do the work. Sure I have to put the speed and power setting in but if a GF user doesn't pay the premium price for coded materials their going to have to put those settings in also. Also your gonna tell me a GF user will never have to change a tube, clean a mirror or replace a lens. I can't believe that. and at the price point of the GF they can have a bigger more powerful, better built and safer laser then the GF. oh and the big thing they can have it in a couple of weeks or less not a year or two from now and don't forget the GF will only run with good internet service

[Bill George]

Like I said a long time ago related to the GF, I see a business opportunity as a tech, but with a first hour rate of say $90 an hour I don't see repeat customers.

[Jason Hilton]

Ok, maybe I'm spoiled by using a "high-end" (by FSL/Rabbit/GF standards): just how bad is the "user experience" for the low-end machines? Because with the software I got with my ULS 11 years ago, it's about as complicated as printing a photo to an ink-jet printer, with comparable success rates for the end product.

VERY bad. In some cases kinda bad. From a qualitative and quantitative UX perspective most laser control software, even from the big 3, is extremely hard to use and learn. Epilog gets it closest by making it a print driver, there's an analog there that clicks with a lot of people. But don't assume that 11 years of experience equates to a good user experience for new users. I've seen long-time users of software products cling to really bad UX because it's what they're used to. That's fine for those few, but the majority of new users will find the same experience incredibly hard to learn, even if they're in the industry the software serves.

(Side note, I'm a full time User Experience Designer)

[Doug Griffith]

I've been a freelance industrial designer for 20 or so years and worked with hundreds of customers and other designers. One thing I can say is that knowing the equipment, materials, and nuts and bolts of the manufacturing process is a big reason why I get jobs and others don't. Designers that just design and think there's a proverbial "easy button" to spit out a product get slapped in the face with reality. Creating equipment that caters to this belief is not good for anybody down the line. Not the customer because they have a false belief how easy things are and expect quick and cheap. Not the product manufacturer because they have to engineer around designs that can not be manufactured. Not the designer because... oh, they've already been paid so I guess it doesn't affect them. This is not just a Glowforge thing either. It's everywhere. Rant over.

[Lee DeRaud]

Epilog gets it closest by making it a print driver, there's an analog there that clicks with a lot of people.

That's exactly how the ULS works, at least on my lower-end model (VL200). Like I said, about the equivalent of a decent ink-jet printer.

But don't assume that 11 years of experience equates to a good user experience for new users.

Just because I've been using it for 11 years doesn't mean it was a bad experience on day 1...quite the opposite in fact.

I've seen long-time users of software products cling to really bad UX because it's what they're used to.
(Side note, I'm a full time User Experience Designer)

Would you mind dialing the condescension back about 6dB? Sometimes long-time users of software products keep using a really good UX because, well, it's really good.

(Side note, you're not the only person here with extensive UX design experience.)

[Bill George]

And as strange as it seems little Susie when she gets mom and dad to buy the low end version of the Glow Forge will still need to learn design software and be able to draw both lines for vectors and designs for engraving. Then uploading to the "cloud" and waiting for the file to download to the GF will be frustration.

Yes, try using Autodesk 123D Catch for example like I did to try 3D scanned model creation for my 3D printer. Some files never did come back finished from the Cloud and those that did were disappointing most of the time.

[Jason Hilton]

I'm sorry you felt condescended to, that wasn't my intention. Side note, maybe dial down your sensitively to 6db? (That condescension was intentional)

Your personal experience aside, not everyone is you, that was my point. You may not represent the average new laser user and you may not have on day one (I don't know either way). Despite my printer example, in a class of 15 users new to laser engraving, I observed 10 who struggled to understand how to use the Epilog print driver. A good user experience is accessible and easy to learn for it's target audience. Glowforge very clearly understands their target market and is creating an experience to maximize their success using their product.

That's exactly how the ULS works, at least on my lower-end model (VL200). Like I said, about the equivalent of a decent ink-jet printer.
Just because I've been using it for 11 years doesn't mean it was a bad experience on day 1...quite the opposite in fact.
Would you mind dialing the condescension back about 6dB? Sometimes long-time users of software products keep using a really good UX because, well, it's really good.

(Side note, you're not the only person here with extensive UX design experience.)

[Dave Sheldrake]

Ok, maybe I'm spoiled by using a "high-end" (by FSL/Rabbit/GF standards): just how bad is the "user experience" for the low-end machines? Because with the software I got with my ULS 11 years ago, it's about as complicated as printing a photo to an ink-jet printer, with comparable success rates for the end product.

For stuff like the entry level K40's etc, really bad brother...if they even turn up straight it's a miracle (I've thrown 3 away in the last 3 years that were sent to me for reviews) chocolate components and unreliable at best, dangerous junk at worst.

US/UK supplied Chinese are pretty good by all standards, cheap to maintain as long as you use them within their limitations. I have a few of the big Chinese machines and they make me great money, if I want to do really small cross section stuff (like the engine parts on the Titan II I'm working on) they can be hopeless.
working 007.JPG

I'm not anti Chinese laser or anti Western, they both have their place

[Lee DeRaud]

Your personal experience aside, not everyone is you, that was my point. You may not represent the average new laser user and you may not have on day one (I don't know either way).

I like to think that I don't represent the "average" anything, then or now. That aside, you keep dismissing the actual experiences of people on this forum, on the theory that they are different in some vague way from the GF target audience.

Despite my printer example, in a class of 15 users new to laser engraving, I observed 10 who struggled to understand how to use the Epilog print driver. A good user experience is accessible and easy to learn for it's target audience.

And my question would be, what exactly were they trying to accomplish? Engrave/cut a canned example file? Because I really have a lot of trouble believing that people who can handle Corel (or equivalent) are struggling to understand how to use a print driver.

Again, my original point: getting from the design to the finished product is not the hard part, getting from idea to design is.

[Jason Hilton]

I like to think that I don't represent the "average" anything, then or now. That aside, you keep dismissing the actual experiences of people on this forum, on the theory that they are different in some vague way from the GF target audience.

I haven't been vague at all, you simply haven't been listening (go ahead, call me condescending). With the exception of a few hobbyists, most of the members of this forum self-identify as professional laser engraver users, which is decidedly not (as pointed out by YOU, among others) Glowforge's target market. You ARE different from the GF target audience, as you yourself have stated previously. I haven't dismissed you in any way (and certainly not the way you've dismissed me). I've tried to communicate that a market segmentation exists, which you seem to believe is irrelevant. My professional experience and common sense tells me otherwise.

Again, my original point: getting from the design to the finished product is not the hard part, getting from idea to design is.

And again, you're pointing out a significant market differentiator (despite apparently not recognizing one exists) between professional users and Glowforge's target market: While Glowforge has made flexible tools to cut and engrave custom designs, they are also making significant efforts to give casual makers pre-tested designs and materials to cut on their machines. It's the market equivalent of building a model boat from scratch or buying a kit. Some people just want a boat. It's the same reason some people scratch build CNC machines and others buy a ShopBot. Different needs and wants for different groups of people.

Dismiss it any way you want, but Glowforge as a business and a product doesn't care about you, they know this is not the product for you (the above average professional). You aren't Glowforge's target market. Not all laser users are the same, and your needs and experiences don't represent everyone's needs or experiences.