Glowforge release

[Bert Kemp]

Ok This is how a good company does business I mentioned a while back about a product I bought and had to return for repair. This was a new product that I waited 2 year to buy, but the company only asked to be paid after the product was ready to ship. They didn't take my money 2 years ago. 2nd When I got the product I used it for a couple weeks wasn't happy with how it worked, the company sent me a prepaid fedex express shipping label , fixed and returned it fedex express. Well unfortunately its had afew more problems and Ihad to send it back 2 more times, each time they paid the freight express both ways and they just sent me a $100 accessory with an apology for my troubles. This product is warrantied for ever, alth I think if it breaks after a year or something they might ask me to pay shipping, I don't know but hopefully its fixed and no more problems.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hurricane went tilt because they couldn't offer back up for the warranty. Yes it applies equally to rebranding companies in China, that's why buying from Chinese resellers via ebay etc usually ends badly.

Remember, when dealing with China you have pretty much no enforceable rights, that's a different matter in the west where rights are protected by laws.

3 years ago I worked on a project with an American laser manufacturer, you know why they never went to market? support needs and costs...and that was a company that made GF look like a corner shop selling dollar items.

Ask any western laser manufacturer if you know any Matt, they will all tell you the same thing, by far the biggest recurring expense is support and warranty, why? because it drains resources and doesn't provide income. That applies equally to newbies like GF right up to the huge companies like Amada, Trumpf, Mitsubishi, Yamazaki. Mitsubishi (IAS Lasers) for example did more $$$ sales a WEEK than GF's total funding combined last year, guess what their biggest costs was?

"Flaws or defects in products or services"

[Scott Shepherd]

Chinese machines are in the discussion, because that is how you compare and contrast SOP for the industry. If you have nothing to compare to, then you have no basis for an opinion.

You're assuming that GF requires an owner making a warranty claim to send the machine back for repair (they don't). You're hitching your wagon to false info. GF will ship parts with instructions to make the warranty repair, just like the other companies you mentioned.

Just for grins:

GF Warranty

"For U.S. Customers only, Glowforge will pay shipping costs to return repair or replacement products.

Epilog Warranty

"All other costs for replacement or repair, including, but not limited to, packaging and shipping both to and from Epilog, shall be paid by the owner."

Still cherry picking the data to support your case, I see? Okay, how many Epilog's you ever seen sent back to fix the machine? Now, spend some time on the GF forum and tell me how many GF's have already been sent back to be repaired. Report back when you find the value is zero for Epilog and more than zero for GF.

I asked if you'd accept it. I noticed you never answered that question. I'm sure I'll get a "Your statement is flawed because it may not need to be sent back". Well, it may not, and it MAY. I asked what you'd do if you bought a machine, waited 2 years or more to get it, then got it and was told it would cost you $1000 in shipping to get it fixed. That's a REAL question asked by a REAL GF customer. Not some made by question by a "GF hater". So what would you do? Pay the $1000?

[Bill George]

GF can not sustain a market base with the flaws (design and build) in the machine. The folks who have drank the GF Kool aid are still hanging in there. If you had money invested in the company and/or were being paid to promote the product what choices do you have? My guess the owner(s) are looking for a buyer right now.

[Matt McCoy]

Hurricane went tilt because they couldn't offer back up for the warranty.

Any inability to provide warranty was secondary splash damage from getting the pants sued off of them by FSL a couple times and not shipping machines to paying customers, garnering a bad reputation. This is irrefutable. My point is valid, that none of the companies you listed are a good comparison, in my opinion, and suspect most have never even heard of those companies.

Besides, the discussion isn't about the importance of a warranty. GF has one that pays shipping both ways, no questions asked for U.S. customers. The unknown is what about international customers? Some contend that you must ship the entire machine back to GF for warranty repair and pay $1,000 to do so. I don't even know if that's even an accurate quote, or from where that would apply, but do know that GF will ship parts to owners for repairs, just like everyone else. So there is nothing to see here, in my opinion.

Remember, when dealing with China you have pretty much no enforceable rights, that's a different matter in the west where rights are protected by laws.

I agree Dave. I had mentioned that a few posts back.

Still cherry picking the data to support your case, I see? Okay, how many Epilog's you ever seen sent back to fix the machine? Now, spend some time on the GF forum and tell me how many GF's have already been sent back to be repaired. Report back when you find the value is zero for Epilog and more than zero for GF.

I try to only pass along things that are true and can be backed up with data, whenever possible. I rarely offer opinion. Yet, you contest that no one has ever returned an Epilog to the factory. How do you know? A guess?

Regardless, once again, I think you're making a straw man argument. GF will ship parts, just like everyone else, so there is no need to return the whole machine for "$1,000" in shipping, so that can be thrown out the window. Does anyone offer free shipping internationally for warranty repair?

To be fair, since you think I'm dodging your question of whether or not I would be happy about taking delivery of a DOA machine that would cost me $$$ to ship back internationally -- of course not! For the record, I wouldn't wait two years for a machine, either. However, I can provide links of SMC members, that have participated in this very thread, receiving machines from China that they have had to patch together, because they arrive broken or missing parts and they just accept that it's part of the compromise of buying internationally for less coin.

[Lee DeRaud]

To be fair, since you think I'm dodging your question of whether or not I would be happy about taking delivery of a DOA machine that would cost me $$$ to ship back internationally -- of course not! For the record, I wouldn't wait two years for a machine, either.

So I have to ask: if you didn't already own a laser, would you buy a GF now that they're shipping?

In case your answer contains some form of the phrase "I'm not the target market", a followup: if a friend or family member decided it would be cool to own a laser, would you recommend the GF?

[Bill George]

Ditto what Lee said, would you let a friend or relative purchase a GF that you Recommended and found no fault with on here? Just Yes or No.

Lee said: So I have to ask: if you didn't already own a laser, would you buy a GF now that they're shipping?

In case your answer contains some form of the phrase "I'm not the target market", a followup: if a friend or family member decided it would be cool to own a laser, would you recommend the GF?

[Jerome Stanek]

[QUOTE=Matt McCoy;2779820]

Regardless, once again, I think you're making a straw man argument. GF will ship parts, just like everyone else, so there is no need to return the whole machine for "$1,000" in shipping, so that can be thrown out the window. Does anyone offer free shipping internationally for warranty repair?


I see that Glowforge wants you to send it back even for small problems that a simple part can take care of. The only parts that I see Glowforge ship is the rings that hold the mirrors or small parts that have fallen off or where never on the machine. I also see where the international customers from the 20 countries that Glowforge won't ship to have been removed from the forum before they can post anything. They have no voice in what their investment got them. It is Just a bunch of Flowforge fan boys that keep saying that is hoe this machine should act and to be satisfied with what they got

[Matt McCoy]

So I have to ask: if you didn't already own a laser, would you buy a GF now that they're shipping?

In case your answer contains some form of the phrase "I'm not the target market", a followup: if a friend or family member decided it would be cool to own a laser, would you recommend the GF?

Fair questions, Lee. I use lasers in my work, and the GF is not a professional machine that would be powerful or fast enough to accommodate my workload, among other things. If I wanted a machine at home to make fun STEAM projects with my children, I would consider version 2.0 (). I rarely buy into first gen tech anyway, so no knock against GF.

I wouldn't talk anyone out of a GF, if that's what they really wanted and it suited their skill set and needs. There are some machines locally that I'm trying to carve out some time to go take a look at.

[Bert Kemp]

Matt yes or no

[Matt McCoy]

...you Recommended and found no fault with on here?

Unfortunately Bill, that's not correct. I pointed out faults, as recently as a few posts back and don't believe I have ever recommended a Glowforge to anyone.

I see that Glowforge wants you to send it back even for small problems that a simple part can take care of. The only parts that I see Glowforge ship is the rings that hold the mirrors or small parts that have fallen off or where never on the machine.

I'm sorry, no offense, but you are often incorrect and pass along misinformation without any links. Lots of "I've seen" posts. For instance, the tube is also covered under the warranty and is shipped both ways free:

"If your tube needs replacement, you’ll have two options:

We will sell replacement tubes so a Glowforge unit can be replaced without shipping it anywhere (price to be announced before we ship).

We’ll replace the tube for you. This is free while the machine is under warranty, and $499 thereafter. This price includes round-trip shipping for your Glowforge anywhere inside the United States. International shipping will be extra."

From the Warranty:

"Glowforge at its sole discretion will (1) provide you with detailed instructions and new or refurbished parts to repair the product; or (2) authorize your return of the product for (i) repair with new or refurbished parts, (ii) replacement with a new or refurbished product that is equivalent to the product to be replaced, or (iii) a refund of the purchase price."

I also see where the international customers from the 20 countries that Glowforge won't ship to have been removed from the forum before they can post anything. They have no voice in what their investment got them. It is Just a bunch of Flowforge fan boys that keep saying that is hoe this machine should act and to be satisfied with what they got

Anyone that is not an owner, cannot post on their forum. This includes the "tiny handful" of backers from countries that cannot purchase a GF, like Angola, Ukraine, and Mauritius.

[Lee DeRaud]

I wouldn't talk anyone out of a GF, if that's what they really wanted and it suited their skill set and needs. There are some machines locally that I'm trying to carve out some time to go take a look at.

The question really wasn't whether you would talk someone out of a GF if that's what they really wanted, it was more one of would you actively steer them toward it if they'd never heard of it.

There's a Rockler in the DFW area (Arlington) that might have the new-gen FS machine set up for demo.

[Bert Kemp]

Again MATT YES OR NO

[Mike Henry3424]

Besides, the discussion isn't about the importance of a warranty. GF has one that pays shipping both ways, no questions asked for U.S. customers. The unknown is what about international customers?

I think the topic of International warranty has come up a few times in the GF forum and the official reply was that International DOAs would be replaced at no cost (shipping either way or the cost of replacement unit) to the owner but for warranty replacements or repairs down the road, the user would have to pay shipping. Many EU users paid $1k for shipping so maybe that's where that amount came from. I'm not sure if the owner has to pay shipping both ways or not. Some (all?) EU countries require that shipping costs for warranties be borne by the seller, but GF has been silent on whether or not they will comply with that policy if it does exist.

FWIW, GF has replaced at least 115 units since September 2017 and the number may be quite a bit higher.

[Jerome Stanek]

"Glowforge at its sole discretion will (1) provide you with detailed instructions and new or refurbished parts to repair the product; or (2) authorize your return of the product for (i) repair with new or refurbished parts, (ii) replacement with a new or refurbished product that is equivalent to the product to be replaced, or (iii) a refund of the purchase price."



Anyone that is not an owner, cannot post on their forum. This includes the "tiny handful" of backers from countries that cannot purchase a GF, like Angola, Ukraine, and Mauritius.

The problem was they were owners until glowforge pulled them without their consent. How do you know that there was just a tiny handful of them like people on their forum posted you will never know how many were bought from those countries.