Glowforge release

[Matt McCoy]

Jason, you are the master of quoting verbatim and using it as a diversionary tactic to avoid the original question. It's entertaining and boring at the same time. Let's go back to the beginning.


You followed this:



With this:



Please tell me what I concluded that is wrong. "you get what you get" maybe?

If your position is that "...the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get.", then I think you would be incorrect. You get what you agree to. Like any purchase, no? I pointed out above that you will agree to terms/warranty before the unit is shipped. After that, you will have either a 6 or 12 month warranty. Asking for a refund before the unit ships is not the only way to "not own a possible brick".

[Art Mann]

Tony Wright : A tiny bit! That was another big discussion. Calling this a “Laser Cutter / Engraver” would’ve been a terrible decision if our goal is to sell this to consumers. Any time we demo’d the Glowforge to people who’d never used a laser cutter, they’d later say, “I really liked that laser printer of yours!” Pretty soon we stopped correcting them. We knew this would annoy some grumpy old school makers, but we’ve been surprised at how few of them are bothered by it. It was a calculated bet that costs us a few sales today, but gave us a category name when we’re talking to laser neophytes – which will be an increasing percentage of our customer base."

My translation: "Lets take advantage of these stupid consumers and call this thing a 3-D machine. By the time they figure out its just another cheap laser cutter, it will be too late to return it."

[Doug Griffith]

If your position is that "...the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get.", then I think you would be incorrect. You get what you agree to. Like any purchase, no? I pointed out above that you will agree to terms/warranty before the unit is shipped. After that, you will have either a 6 or 12 month warranty. Asking for a refund before the unit ships is not the only way to "not own a possible brick".

To think that people actually read through terms and conditions is idealistic much less thoroughly understanding the legal jargon they are reading. To expect them to do it once they get an email requesting their shipping address for something they've waited many months for makes digging through them even less likely. What I just stated is exacerbated by who their target market is. Soccer moms are not going to read through legal mumbo jumbo. They just aren't.

That said, nowhere in the existing terms does it state anything about a 6 to 12 month warranty.

The warranty information does not exist.

[Bert Kemp]

My translation: "Lets take advantage of these stupid consumers and call this thing a 3-D machine. By the time they figure out its just another cheap laser cutter, it will be too late to return it."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^What he said plus what Doug said, there is no warranty now and nobody will read the legal mumbo jumbo. I waited 5 years for this heres my address send it now, then they get it and it will be yikes what have I done

[Doug Griffith]

I'm a little confused as to why you're lamenting the apparent lack of Terms and Conditions/Warranty

Shifty legal jargon and deceptive advertising is the reason. Why, if they conjured up this huge amount of money, haven't they fixed their website and added their warranty page? Really? The page goes to a 404 error. Instead they choose to hold off until the last minute when they are requesting shipping addresses. My guess is they are hedging their bets that few will actually read the terms and cancel their order after waiting such a long time. That, and that arenas like this forum won't have time to rip it apart. But that's just me.

The short version is that there’s a 6 month warranty on basic and a 12 month warranty on Pro.

Amazing you found this because it sure isn't in the non-existent warranty page that the "Terms of Conditions for Online Offer to Purchase" directly refers to. You know, what's considered the legal document.

Really??? What company would state the below? WELL THANK YOU. Can't they afford a lawyer? A small piece of the 28 million might get them Saul Goodman.
"One of our most common requests from customers is that they would like us to add a standard warranty. OK! We’re going to do it. While this isn’t the full legal warranty (coming soon, from our friendly neighborhood lawyer), this is the basics of what we plan to cover with it:"

Also, hidden on the TECH SPECS page:

Why hidden?

I really don't have anything against Glowforge because I appreciate ambitious start-ups. They should just make their real terms of sale, warranty, and return policy available and knock off the deceptive "3D printer" marketing. Oh, and quit pushing it as a kitchen appliance when we all know how dangerous lasers are both in noxious fumes and fire hazards.

[Doug Griffith]

You said this:

"So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get."

The "So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before it starts shipping" is a conclusion you reached based on not being able to read the warranty and return policy because said policies are not available. It's an erroneous conclusion. Your argument is a logical fallacy, assuming that since a policy isn't available it must be the policy you believe. So you're wrong. Or more appropriately, you're not right, because you can't make that statement as true since you countered it in your own post by stating that those policies are not available to evaluate. You're wrong and you proved it yourself.

You're killing me Jason.

How can I come to an erroneous conclusion when it is in black and white on their website:

"If you request a refund at any time before we accept your pre-order, we will process it promptly, and we will refund the full amount you paid. Once you provide your shipping address and we have accepted your offer, the policy in the immediately preceding sentence no longer applies. Instead, Glowforge’s refund policy and limited warranties will apply."

Maybe I should have inserted "assured" between "only" and "way".

If you're referring to "you get what you get"? Well, it is what it is.

[Jason Hilton]

It's been clearly stated, by you in fact, that the warranty and return policy won't be available until closer to the shipment date. How do you not understand that, given YOU stated clearly the warranty and terms of service aren't yet available, when you state "So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get." you're making an erroneous statement and an unsupported conclusion? It's boggles my mind...

You're killing me Jason.

How can I come to an erroneous conclusion when it is in black and white on their website:

"If you request a refund at any time before we accept your pre-order, we will process it promptly, and we will refund the full amount you paid. Once you provide your shipping address and we have accepted your offer, the policy in the immediately preceding sentence no longer applies. Instead, Glowforge’s refund policy and limited warranties will apply."

Maybe I should have inserted "assured" between "only" and "way".

If you're referring to "you get what you get"? Well, it is what it is.

[Bert Kemp]

It boggles my mind that you actually just wrote that.

We have an unlimited, no questions asked refund policy up until we collect your address for shipment. Once it's shipped, our warranty applies. We don't accept returns once the device has been delivered.

So this means once they get your shipping address your stuck with it weather it works or not you have it.

It's been clearly stated, by you in fact, that the warranty and return policy won't be available until closer to the shipment date. How do you not understand that, given YOU stated clearly the warranty and terms of service aren't yet available, when you state "So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get." you're making an erroneous statement and an unsupported conclusion? It's boggles my mind...

[Doug Griffith]

It's been clearly stated, by you in fact, that the warranty and return policy won't be available until closer to the shipment date. How do you not understand that, given YOU stated clearly the warranty and terms of service aren't yet available, when you state "So the only way to not own a possible brick is to request a refund before units start shipping. After that, you get what you get." you're making an erroneous statement and an unsupported conclusion? It's boggles my mind...

I don't quite think you get my statement "you get what you get". It means you get the Glowforge and whatever terms of sale, warranty, and return policy that comes with it. All of which are unknowns at this point. As I said before, I probably should have inserted "assured" between "only" and "way". Then there wouldn't be all these erroneous conlusions floating around. Plus I said "possible" which is not a matter of fact.

[John Blazy]

I think it will be interesting to see what this Glowforge does to the entire low cost laser industry. Anyone selling low cost CO2 lasers wants them to be a household word, because once the general public gets a taste of the abilities of what a laser can do, they will want more, better, and bigger machines.

Seems like Glowforge will either go through serious growing pains (imagine their tech support fielding questions from the dumbest of the dumb about why it didn't engrave in the same colors of the photo they used), and survive to sell for several years after paid warranties, or they will go under due to tech support problems, or whatever we all on this forum speculate. Bottom line is that more people will be AWARE of laser cutting / engraving.

Lots of folks on this forum have lasers in their garages, and I should have had one fifteen years ago - so many uses.

My prediction is that the mainstream laser companies will benefit from any outcome of Glowforge - successful or not - in the long run.

For example, one of the major plastics suppliers did a mass marketing campaign of dichroic (color-changing)laminated acrylic. Made the stuff common knowledge. Got a lot of architects and designers hooked on it. Then they discontinued the product due to technical issues and raw material cost increases. Those architects, designers and public artists scrambled to find an alternative.

[Dave Sheldrake]

or they will go under due to tech support problems,

John is bang on the money!!

A friend who sells lasers said to me the other day his cheapest machine accounts for 80% of tech support calls.

So 20mil's worth of GF's have been "sold", lets imagine that they are all the $4,000 model, that's 5,000 machines.

If users only need ONE support call a year thats 14 calls a DAY 7 days a week/365 days a year, that's a LOT of support staff (who know what they are on about) being required.

Now figure in Mary the soccer mom firing up her millions maker in the kitchen (along with her friends doing the same) and the whole support system is going to go straight to hell

To me the single biggest mistake GF made was not having at least one respected expert from the industry onside. That single mistake is going to cost them.....

[Lee DeRaud]

If users only need ONE support call a year thats 14 calls a DAY 7 days a week/365 days a year, that's a LOT of support staff (who know what they are on about) being required.

Depends on what you mean by "a LOT": maybe 4-5 full-time guys answering phones and reading scripts in Bangalore, (possibly) backed up by one guy in Seattle who can actually answer questions.

Hey, if it's good enough for Microsoft...

[Joel Ifill]

I see a lot of concern here of the modern crowd funding phenomena. I ran two successful kickstarter campaigns which actually paid for my Speedy 100. Yes, it's basically a wide open thing if they acted really incompetently with your money or just couldn't deliver there's not too much legal recourse unless you can prove they were using it irresponsibly. If they promised a 1KW laser and turns out they can't manufacture one for 4K, there's not much you can do. As far as tech support, they seem to be a relatively smart group of people and I hope that they factored in warranty and tech support. Those numbers aren't hard to run for a new project and nowadays forums (like this) become useful fonts for information that doesn't require a tech support call.

I think the glowforge has some interesting ideas and things like the stereoscopic focusing and auto positioning are proof that the big guys were getting lazy in the R&D department. Now how well those features work at this price point only time will tell. But there was certainly no excuse for the big guys to not implement these features on lasers that cost 2-4x the cost, or come out and say very clearly why they tried it and it's not for them. Reminds me of how Nest came in and basically gave Honeywell and the established multi-billion dollar companies a lesson on how to design a thermostat. My biggest concern is that people will be shocked by how slow a 40W chinese glass tube laser will raster especially as the head carries the tube. Also Tube life and replacements.

In the end the machines are not for most of us here, it's like machinists complaining about desktop mills and little hobbyist CNC machines. Yeah that don't have the features and robust build of professional machines but they are decidedly not for that purpose. The only fear is that the machine will work so poorly that it will live a 28 million dollar bitter taste in the consumers mouth. My hope is that some of the features found in the glowforge will trickle up into the professional machine market as real-time stereoscopic focus is quite useful among others.

[Rich Harman]

My biggest concern is that people will be shocked by how slow a 40W chinese glass tube laser will raster especially as the head carries the tube.

Can you explain further? The tube is far too large to be carried on the head.

[Andrew Holloway]

Can you explain further? The tube is far too large to be carried on the head.

I think he means the gantry carries the tube.