Glowforge release

[John Lifer]

I shouldn't keep posting, but Yes Matt, the machine is still vaporware for a LOT of US customers and ALL of the international customers.. And Dan the man wouldn't have mentioned in his post that US customers delivery will be slowed if it was an inconsequential number of US machines left to ship. And in my not so humble opinion, there are two directions the company is taking (from the start) in continuing to make money after sales die. One the 'Proof grade' materials that have a little bar code for the machine to read that are priced at extreme and from what I keep seeing don't work any better than cheaper materials, and charging for the internet service. I EXPECT any upgraded service i.e. getting dimensions 100% correct, and even speed of service will soon be made into a paid subscription....... Otherwise brick. time will tell. I'm not about to buy a potential brick.

[Matt McCoy]

Of course not! Your reply gets at the heart of my objections to this ill conceived toy. If I buy a laser from some other company, I can keep using it even if the company goes under. I can even get parts from alternate sources. Not so with Glowforge. The terms of service specifically say they can cut me off, and render my laser cutter utterly useless, according to their own determination of what is right. That mile long defensive boilerplate is absolutely not typical for any other piece of equipment I own. Netflix is a subscription too. If they were to cut me off, there is always Amazon Prime or a hundred other alternatives. If Glowforge cuts me off or goes under, I am just out of luck.

There is some guy trying to sell a Glowforge on this forum right now. For the sake of other members, I felt it necessary to ask him to quote the Glowforge policy in resale and secondary access to the server and software. Unfortunately, like most people, he didn't study the terms of service and didn't know. Potential buyers need to know the company position on this matter. It will definitely not improve his resale ability. That is Glowforge's fault.

By the way, I refuse to buy anything Apple as well and for almost the same reason.

Glowforge will transfer ownership to a new owner, it's not a problem. The new owner will need to get his/her own account, because that is not transferable. I'm not sure about the transfer of warranty, but there is no specific mention of prohibiting that.

However, for context and to play devil's advocate, it appears that Epilog, Trotec, and Universal will not transfer the limited warranty and have specific language to that effect.

This is not a Ford/Chevy point, and I think those are all fine companies, so anyone that might get defensive, please take that in consideration.

Take a look at your TOS for Netflix, Amazon, and Microsoft. All can change terms, prices, and cancel your service, for any reason, at any time. Just like Apple, GF, etc. Although, Netflix will give you 30 days notice of increasing monthly subscription.

So then, does anyone know the approximate ratio of 'works correctly' to 'doesn't work correctly' Glowforges? I have no clue, but it does seem high...?

In contrast, in my home to run my business I have 15 engraving machines of various types, most of them are well beyond their 'average service life; their combined ages is 295 years (316 if you add my old ULS my BIL still uses daily)-- All of them 'works correctly', and always have. In 42 years, 2 power supplies have been my only 'catastrophic' failures, and both of those incidents were rectified within hours.

So, when it comes to machines working, my expectations are a little high

That's probably your impression, so that's fine. I don't see it, but I may keep up with it a little more.

Kev, it's just my opinion, but I think your expertise, experience, and talent at keeping the plates spinning with all your machines, probably requires a special type of person. I suspect that more hacking, work-arounds, and attention might be required than you are aware of. You are probably just used to it and everything works well enough to pull off exceptional work. I think this is more about your skillset, though.

Not in the EU it isn't, such terms and conditions that attempt to remove or limit statutory rights are illegal hence why the GF EU T&C are different

As already mentioned, U.S. and EU customers have different terms for protection. GF fully complies and defers to all EU law, so you're kind of proving my point by noting that. Nothing to see here, SOP. No cause for alarm.

So what you are saying Matt is you are correct in saying I am miss-reading the terms (not being a lawyer) compared to a 30 year time served and qualified lawyer who specialises in contract law?

I'm sure you won't be offended if I take more notice of the $1,000 an hour lawyer

No, I'm not offended at all -- no worries. Here's what you posted:

"We reserve the right to Brick you if you don't pay a fee / subscription if we decide to implement one."

This was pertaining to GF's TOS:

"Subscription Service. The Service may include additional, premium features that include automatically recurring payments for periodic charges (“Subscription Service”), for example, monthly delivery of designs.

GF has stated that there will not be a subscription fee and this is copied from their FAQ:

"Will there be a fee for the Glowforge service?
There's no cost for you to print things with the Glowforge cloud service. It's free, included in your purchase price. There is no paid subscription required. All the features you see in the video at Glowforge.com are included at no additional cost (except for purchasing premium prints from the Catalog, of course)."

I'm sure your attorney is very talented, but if he's still there, you might ask him what "premium" means and to take another crack at reading through again. Take note of the example of a premium service feature. Hopefully it doesn't cost you another $1,000/hour for his legal advice on the GF.

Matt you can'y come up with anything better them my thinking is set. gessh and look who has to answer a 100 post a day because they think the GF needs defending. LOL

Bert, it seems I can almost always come up with something better, in response to your GF posts. Of course, I'm teasing you, but seriously, you might consider a little more unbiased approach.

As I have said before, I really admire your work and involvement with vets. It's inspiring to see you keep busy and continue learning new things after retirement. Especially something that is in service of, and so helpful to others.

You are certainly entitled to an opinion, and hope you continue in the discussion.

[Matt McCoy]

I shouldn't keep posting...

I sincerely hope that you will and continue to offer your opinion.

[Lee DeRaud]

Take a look at your TOS for Netflix, Amazon, and Microsoft. All can change terms, prices, and cancel your service, for any reason, at any time. Just like Apple, GF, etc. Although, Netflix will give you 30 days notice of increasing monthly subscription.

None of those take thousands of dollars up-front for hardware to access their service either. There really is a difference between a content-only service and one that is strictly in support of, and required by, a multi-$K hardware device. Even for Apple (AFAIK), their devices will still work if they cancel/change their online services or you opt out of them. (I could be wrong about that, but it's not like I really need another reason to dislike Apple.)

Kev, it's just my opinion, but I think your expertise, experience, and talent at keeping the plates spinning with all your machines, probably requires a special type of person. I suspect that more hacking, work-arounds, and attention might be required than you are aware of. You are probably just used to it and everything works well enough to pull off exceptional work. I think this is more about your skillset, though.

Matt, so far you've stayed away from that particular meme: it was the thing that put my blood pressure over the top when Jason Hilton was frequenting this thread. It's the idea that because we have actual skills and knowledge in this arena, it somehow renders us unqualified to truly appreciate what GF brings to the table, and applies a discount to our opinions. It's kind of like saying, "Well, of course you don't understand what a great car the Yugo is, you're a race-car driver!"

[Mike Henry3424]

GF has stated that there will not be a subscription fee and this is copied from their FAQ:

"Will there be a fee for the Glowforge service?
There's no cost for you to print things with the Glowforge cloud service. It's free, included in your purchase price. There is no paid subscription required. All the features you see in the video at Glowforge.com are included at no additional cost (except for purchasing premium prints from the Catalog, of course)."

Some time back, the GF CEO mentioned on the forum that the cloud service for the features that had been announced at the start of the pre-order campaign would always be free to users but he implied that they might charge a fee for new features. I'm not sure that is legally binding though, especially if they sell out to another company or get a new CEO. I've had one company renege on a publicly made promise and another one alter the TOS, both with no practical recourse.

[Matt McCoy]

None of those take thousands of dollars up-front for hardware to access their service either. There really is a difference between a content-only service and one that is strictly in support of, and required by, a multi-$K hardware device. Even for Apple (AFAIK), their devices will still work if they cancel/change their online services or you opt out of them. (I could be wrong about that, but it's not like I really need another reason to dislike Apple.)
Matt, so far you've stayed away from that particular meme: it was the thing that put my blood pressure over the top when Jason Hilton was frequenting this thread. It's the idea that because we have actual skills and knowledge in this arena, it somehow renders us unqualified to truly appreciate what GF brings to the table, and applies a discount to our opinions. It's kind of like saying, "Well, of course you don't understand what a great car the Yugo is, you're a race-car driver!"

I believe the price for the new iPhone is $1,000. I don't think it will do much without a service contract. GF has promised to release the firmware, at some point -- just in case.

I'm not much for car analogies, but my point was: This old truck works fine and does everything I need. However, it's quickly apparent how far the technology has advanced in the last 10 years when driving/riding in a new vehicle (even entry-level models).

Some time back, the GF CEO mentioned on the forum that the cloud service for the features that had been announced at the start of the pre-order campaign would always be free to users but he implied that they might charge a fee for new features. I'm not sure that is legally binding though, especially if they sell out to another company or get a new CEO. I've had one company renege on a publicly made promise and another one alter the TOS, both with no practical recourse.

That's likely the "premium" services, that may come down the pipe.

Your experience with two companies changing their TOS fits my narrative that GF is not alone in crafting terms to keep options open. It seems like it's par for the course.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I don't think it will do much without a service contract.

I have 5 Iphones, two of them just get used as music players and don't have sim cards in them. There are no contracts held with them and they will still do everything they did before except make phonecalls, although Facetime and web calling is still available via my broadband connection.

The GF if it has no connection to the web server will do absolutely nothing

The problem my lawyer explained to me was, without access to the GF server the machine is a rock and their T&C's make it possible to charge for access to that server at any time with no alternative option unless you want a rock as there are no other service providers to support the machine.

I changed the contract on my work mobile from EE to ThreeMobile because I didn't like EE's prices and terms. I now have a fully functional mobile that does everything it did on a totally new provider. This is not possible with the glowforge and they know that so can change and modify whatever they like.

U.S. and EU customers have different terms for protection.

Indeed, because unlike the US it appears, our laws do not allow companies to hold people for ransom with unethical terms and conditions that have no redress via the court system.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I'm sure it will be mentioned that companies like Corel and Adobe do that as well BUT there is a difference, subscription services for software packages don't require you to buy a $4,000 piece of hardware to use them. If I cancel my autodesk sub, I simply can't use their software, the PC it is running on will still function normally just without the autodesk software.

When you pay for software you do not BUY the software, you license the use of it, when you pay for a GF, you OWN the machine but it will only work as long as you have access to their software at whatever terms they wish to place on it.

[Jerome Stanek]

I also have an I phone with no contract and I use it to stream videos and surf the net. No data over the phone just wifi.

[Paul Phillips]

However, for context and to play devil's advocate, it appears that Epilog, Trotec, and Universal will not transfer the limited warranty and have specific language to that effect.

FWIW, regardless of what the limited warranty is, if you read through many of the Epilog related posts I seem to remember many people who bought a used machine and Epilog happily helped the new owner get the machine running and troubleshoot it for little or many times no cost and treat the new owner as if they are part of the family, I remember thinking they have the best customer service I've ever heard of!

[Lee DeRaud]

I believe the price for the new iPhone is $1,000. I don't think it will do much without a service contract.

Hint: the service contract that matters for smartphone is the one for the carrier...last I checked, Apple doesn't own any cell towers. The Apple cloud services may be useful to (some) iPhone users, but it will work fine without them.

[Matt McCoy]

I have 5 Iphones, two of them just get used as music players and don't have sim cards in them. There are no contracts held with them and they will still do everything they did before except make phonecalls, although Facetime and web calling is still available via my broadband connection.

The GF if it has no connection to the web server will do absolutely nothing

The problem my lawyer explained to me was, without access to the GF server the machine is a rock and their T&C's make it possible to charge for access to that server at any time with no alternative option unless you want a rock as there are no other service providers to support the machine.

I changed the contract on my work mobile from EE to ThreeMobile because I didn't like EE's prices and terms. I now have a fully functional mobile that does everything it did on a totally new provider. This is not possible with the glowforge and they know that so can change and modify whatever they like.

Indeed, because unlike the US it appears, our laws do not allow companies to hold people for ransom with unethical terms and conditions that have no redress via the court system.

When you use the word "except", it nullifies "they will still do everything they did before", which is be used as a phone. It's even in the name.

Your attorney seems to have knowledge of how the GF connects to its servers, but is likely not correct in his interpretation of the TOS. See previous post.

The GF servers are functional and the machines can connect to them currently. GF has promised to release the firmware to a tech-savvy base that will allow the GF to be functional if they go away.

That's another discussion, for another place. We weren't comparing the pro/cons of U.S. vs. EU consumer law, but that GF would conform to EU regulations, which you were concerned about.

I'm sure it will be mentioned that companies like Corel and Adobe do that as well BUT there is a difference, subscription services for software packages don't require you to buy a $4,000 piece of hardware to use them. If I cancel my autodesk sub, I simply can't use their software, the PC it is running on will still function normally just without the autodesk software.

When you pay for software you do not BUY the software, you license the use of it, when you pay for a GF, you OWN the machine but it will only work as long as you have access to their software at whatever terms they wish to place on it.

Again, the GF does not require a paid subscription, so...

I also have an I phone with no contract and I use it to stream videos and surf the net. No data over the phone just wifi.

Sounds good.

FWIW, regardless of what the limited warranty is, if you read through many of the Epilog related posts I seem to remember many people who bought a used machine and Epilog happily helped the new owner get the machine running and troubleshoot it for little or many times no cost and treat the new owner as if they are part of the family, I remember thinking they have the best customer service I've ever heard of!

That great! Thanks for sharing that Paul. I agree with your last sentence. My point was that they don't legally have to and to provide context for the GF warranty. Like I said, devil's advocate and not a Ford/Chevy discussion.

Hint: the service contract that matters for smartphone is the one for the carrier...last I checked, Apple doesn't own any cell towers. The Apple cloud services may be useful to (some) iPhone users, but it will work fine without them.

You still need service to utilize all the functions.

[Dave Sheldrake]

but is likely not correct in his interpretation of the TOS. See previous post.

You a state registered contract lawyer then Matt with 30 years experience to arrive at that conclusion?

When you use the word "except", it nullifies "they will still do everything they did before",

Until I go to another provider who will happily supply me with a sim card that will allow use of them as phones.Why? because I have a choice of other providers...something GF owners do not

GF has promised to release the firmware to a tech-savvy base

They also said they would offer a laser with Camera support for alignment, I guess it depends how you define "alignment"

We weren't comparing the pro/cons of U.S. vs. EU consumer law,

So you are satisfied with US consumers having less rights on something they buy than everybody else then?

I'm astounded that you are convinced you are right and to a man pretty much everybody else who has posted in this topic is wrong, up to and including on the terms of contract law when you aren't a lawyer.

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm astounded that you are convinced you are right and to a man pretty much everybody else who has posted in this topic is wrong, up to and including on the terms of contract law when you aren't a lawyer.

100% agree.

[Lee DeRaud]

You still need service to utilize all the functions.

I'd be curious to hear which functions won't work that can't be obtained on an iPhone from a non-Apple source.

That aside, the point, which you seem to want to hand-wave away, is that the GF needs the service to utilize any of its functions.
(Except the door-stop/paperweight stuff, of course.)