ted sokolowski metal inlay

[allen thunem]

Would like to hear the thoughts from anyone who has used ted sokolowski's powdered metal for inlay work.

[John K Jordan]

Would like to hear the thoughts from anyone who has used ted sokolowski's powdered metal for inlay work.

Allen,

I bought the powdered metal he sells and tried it on several pieces. It really adds an accent to dark wood.

It did look grainer than I had hoped. The microscope shows a lot of space between the grains. I tried some other powder purchased from Amazon but it was so fine the CA glue would not even soak into it. Making my own powder with a file was too coarse.

In search for the inlay that would look smooth and polish well I think it might need a wider range of particle sizes wih more fines. I got some very vine scientific sifting trays and I want to try making my own powder, grading it, and see it I can find the perfect mix.

JKJ

[allen thunem]

thanks john
your last statement made me think of another question how is powdered metal made??
ground?? file shavings??
i have used cuttings from a locksmith i use and i don't mind the look, a bit grainy, but none the less not a terrible look. works well in larger voids
am anxious to hear how you did with your experiment unmaking your own
also given you weren't satisfied with what you bought on amazon, which i where was going to buy mine, I am to assume that the stuff ted sells is a more course mesh??? If memory serves the stuff on amazon is 325 or 350 mesh.
allen

Allen,

I bought the powdered metal he sells and tried it on several pieces. It really adds an accent to dark wood.

It did look grainer than I had hoped. The microscope shows a lot of space between the grains. I tried some other powder purchased from Amazon but it was so fine the CA glue would not even soak into it. Making my own powder with a file was too coarse.

In search for the inlay that would look smooth and polish well I think it might need a wider range of particle sizes wih more fines. I got some very vine scientific sifting trays and I want to try making my own powder, grading it, and see it I can find the perfect mix.

JKJ

[John K Jordan]

I don't know what is used for these "art" metals, but from my reading there are many methods. Most often mentioned is a ball mill, but atomizing molten metal and chemical methods are used for extremely fine powders. This thread on a science forum has a great deal of information!

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/v....php?tid=21516

I was planning to try making finer powder with a sanding drum. Someone on the science forum cautioned that this will introduce particles of grit into the powder which could be a problem for powder used in chemical processes. I'll have to see what that does to polished inlays. I probably won't be able to try this for a few weeks.

BTW, here is a picture of one of my attempts on a turning. Since it is a ring all the way around I had to do it in several small sections, letting each set up before I rotated it. I was looking for the polished, solid metal look but this looks pretty good if you don't look too close!

brass_finial_ring_IMG_2384.jpg

(BTW, the little box has solid brass feet and finial that I turned on the wood lathe with a spindle gouge.)

The metal power product I got from Amazon that didn't soak up the CA glue was "Mona Lisa Metal Powder: Pale Gold". This is EXTREMELY fine powder and will float in the air. It is evidently perfect for polymer clays and when painted or dusted onto things - it will adhere almost like gold foil. However wetting it with thin CA glue didn't work for me. Maybe it would work to mix it into the glue. I've heard of people doing this with epoxy but I haven't tried it.

There are other metal powders available on Amazon that are different. I bought another one from there which worked just like Ted's powder. I also bought some from one of the woodturners catalogs which was about the same as the others.

Note that so far I have only tried the brass powder - Ted's copper or other colors might work differently.

Hey, if you haven't tried them, the very small CA glue tips that Ted and others sell work great for putting thin CA glue exactly where needed without making a mess. I keep one on the bottle all the time now.

JKJ

[mike pockoski]

I've used the fine AL powder you can buy on Ebay and as John mentions above, the permeability is too low...CA puddles up on it and gives you fits... you sand through as you go and end up releasing un-glued power pockets and difficult patch jobs...

i've had luck with an old blade coffee grinder...run it for 5 minutes (have to clamp the button down) and it makes a nice medium dust (gets very hot! not gonna live too long, but they are cheap)...coarse enough that the glue wicks right into it but fine enough to look appealing and add come textural interest. Only way i can see making it perfect for john's microscope viewing would be to pour molten metal into the voids, which could probably make for some very interesting burn patterns around the fill, though maybe some interesting discussing and burn patterns around the Emergency Room too...

[John K Jordan]

Only way i can see making it perfect for john's microscope viewing would be to pour molten metal into the voids, which could probably make for some very interesting burn patterns around the fill, though maybe some interesting discussing and burn patterns around the Emergency Room too...

Ha! I actually thought of that at one point, in a fleeting moment, but my better judgement prevailed. I've seen people inlay wire and even rings of solid metal but seasonal wood movement could make that challenging. I tried wrapped brass wire around the circumference of a piece of ebony, gluing the ends into holes, and that turned and worked ok for a different look.

BTW, I used the microscope (one of mine is a fantastic low-power stereo) to try to understand exactly what was going on after the result looked grainy even from a few feet away. It was obvious the grains had a lot of space between, many looked like they could indeed be packed tighter somehow.

One thing I thought of. Ted Sokolowski mentions tapping to aid in settling the powder into the recess. This would not work on a groove running around a circumference but might on a flat recess held level. I once worked for a nuclear piping company and they used an air hammer to settle and pack sand grains as tightly as possible into a big pipe before capping, heating to red hot, and bending. They hammered for hours, very loud! For a flat recess some mechanical vibration might help a lot, say from an engraving pen. I'll have to try that.

What might really help is brass colored superglue.

JKJ

[Paul Gilbert]

I would think that the problem with ultra fine powders not adsorbing CA glue would be the surface of the powder. If it was prepared in such a way that a surface film was present that did not "wet" with CA it would behave as described above. I would try to treat the powder with a surfactant or wash with acetone and try to evaluate the "wetting" properties of the treated powders. Remember that you need both water and a base for CA to set. Treating the powder with ammonia might also help.

[John Keeton]

Would using a thinned epoxy and blending in the powder prior to application work? Seems I have always had better results with epoxy vs CA.

[mike pockoski]

i'm gonna work on exactly that John...thinned epoxy with the powder. I've got some pieces set aside that I've been doing with lichtenberg figure that just begs filling, but the relief is pretty fine and needs a fine grained fill... going to see if i can't mix up some aluminum epoxy and squeegee it in there...

[John K Jordan]

Would using a thinned epoxy and blending in the powder prior to application work?

I want to do inlays in grooves cut around the circumference of the piece, such as in the goblet picture. I was afraid if not thick that epoxy would run out of the groove. When I did this with CA glue I did a small section at the top and when that hardened I rotated to the next section.

Maybe use thicker epoxy?
Do a bit at the top then when it starts to set up rotate a little and add more? (a lot of mixing)
Make kneedable brass-filled epoxy putty somehow and press it into the groove?

Maybe stick the end of a long piece of tape of some sort to the wood in the lower front, add epoxy to the groove with a syringe a drop at a time, stick the tape down to keep it from running out while rotating the piece?

JKJ

[John Keeton]

I think the metal filler will stiffen the epoxy quite a bit. I have used that method with brass filings successfully on recesses, but one would need to play with it to know. I mix it with a palette knife and apply it with the knife, forcing it into the recess and leaving it somewhat proud of the surface.

I would also add that I like a black epoxy mix. One can tint epoxy with universal tint that is used by paint stores in mixing paint, and the black seems to really accent the metal without taking away from it. I like it better than seemingly "open" spots in the mix. Just my take on it. I would add that the black will bleed, so make sure to seal the wood good with shellac or lacquer. Since you are going to turn away the excess metal filler, the shellac/lacquer area will be turned away, as well.

[Mike Nathal]

I was at Ted's booth in Pittsburgh and his display pieces did not look at all grainy. He wants you to buy his DVD to learn all the tricks. I do know he uses CA glue. My first attempt with his copper powder was pretty good, not grainy but probably did not achieve the super fine polish that Ted does. I filled the cracks with loose powder, and then flooded with thin CA. I pressed the powder into the crack with a popsicle stick both before and after the CA, but the powder seems to act like an accelerator and the CA cures fast. My impression is that his powder is the right size, definitely not too coarse. Certainly finer than any sawdust or coffee grounds I have ever used. The effect is much different than brass shavings, I like it much better and will probably try a couple more experiments and buy his DVD if I can't get to his level of polish.

[John K Jordan]

He wants you to buy his DVD to learn all the tricks

I bought his DVD a year or so ago and followed all the tips. I got a very nice polish with find sandpaper and metal polish. However, there were still visible dark spaces between the grains. I have not watched the video again after I tried my test inlays.

The first step in figuring this out: I need to watch the DVD again and pay more attention to what Ted's actually results looked like. If mine look the same as his on the videos but not as good as what he has in his booth, what is he doing different? If his look better on the video, then I'm doing something wrong. I certainly hope I didn't get a batch of powder different than what Ted S uses on his work! How could one know?

JKJ

[Wes Ramsey]

I've gotten pretty good results from Ted's powdered copper. I haven't watched the video - just decided to get some and try it. Tapping/tamping does make a difference, and you don't get a 2nd chance to make it perfect. If it settles below flush when flooded with CA you will always see a bit of a line where you filled in with a 2nd batch. I roto-sand the humps down pretty close to flush, then use sheet paper and maybe a block to get it flush. I've used it a few times to fill small cracks in vases and HFs with great results. I just rub enough powder into the crack to fill it, flood it, then sand it. Less perfect here is better - it looks like a natural vein of copper grown into the wood.

Here's some carving/inlace I finished last week for a friend. This is only my 3rd go at carving so it's a little rough, but turned out well enough that I didn't feel the need to start over. I sanded the bowl to 240 grit and the inlace to 400. Looks great in person, but I'm surprised at how much the camera highlights the sanding marks. May have to clean it up a bit more before I deliver it!

bowl1.jpgbowl2.jpgbowl3.jpg

[Wes Ramsey]

Ha! I actually thought of that at one point, in a fleeting moment, but my better judgement prevailed. I've seen people inlay wire and even rings of solid metal but seasonal wood movement could make that challenging. I tried wrapped brass wire around the circumference of a piece of ebony, gluing the ends into holes, and that turned and worked ok for a different look.

BTW, I used the microscope (one of mine is a fantastic low-power stereo) to try to understand exactly what was going on after the result looked grainy even from a few feet away. It was obvious the grains had a lot of space between, many looked like they could indeed be packed tighter somehow.

One thing I thought of. Ted Sokolowski mentions tapping to aid in settling the powder into the recess. This would not work on a groove running around a circumference but might on a flat recess held level. I once worked for a nuclear piping company and they used an air hammer to settle and pack sand grains as tightly as possible into a big pipe before capping, heating to red hot, and bending. They hammered for hours, very loud! For a flat recess some mechanical vibration might help a lot, say from an engraving pen. I'll have to try that.

What might really help is brass colored superglue.

JKJ

Ever consider silver solder? I think I saw a Youtube video of a guy melting it with a torch and dripping it into the channel. It would probably look pretty good and shouldn't burn the wood much, if any, before it cools. I've got a few more Christmas orders to get out the door and I'll have time to play