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Thread: Problems sharpening/using PM-V11 blades

  1. #1

    Problems sharpening/using PM-V11 blades

    I own a couple PM-V11 steel blades for my Veritas planes and I can never seem to get them as sharp as I expect.

    Even after several sharpening cycles, my shooting plane's stock PM-V11 blade has trouble slicing paper and isn't all that good at cutting the end grain of even cherry or pine. Shooting with my LA jack equipped with a 25 deg A2 blade does a far better job.

    I also just sharpened up a brand new 50 deg PM-V11 blade for my LA jack, but despite looking shiny it feels dull to the touch, can't slice paper, and just bounces across straight-grained walnut when testing the cut. Here is what the blade looks like after sharpening:



    Pretty shiny right? Looks exactly the same as my A2 blades after sharpening. But it doesn't catch my fingernail or the skin of my finger, can't slice paper in any direction, and just bounces off / skids over anything I try to plane. Couldn't make any shavings off my test block of walnut.

    I sharpened the 25 deg A2 blade the exact same way, popped it in the plane, and the same piece of walnut now cuts perfectly:



    I use a variety of the Rob Cosman freehand sharpening technique, which starts on a 1000 grit diamond stone for the secondary bevel and then moves directly to a 15000 grit shapton pro waterstone for the tertiary bevel, followed by a couple strokes on the back to remove any burr and polish the flat. I also strop a few strokes on leather with white rouge, but it isn't necessary... my A2/O1 irons are sharp as hell after either way. When I sharpen PM-V11 this way, I can never feel a burr on the back after even the coarsest stone (unlike A2 and O1), and when done the edge just feels round to the touch... like I'd have to work hard to cut myself with it.

    So what on earth is happening? This steel has been advertised as god's gift to hand planes, but it just feels like crud each time I use it. Is it a flaw in my sharpening technique? I'd really appreciate any advise on the subject.
    Last edited by Allen Jordan; 11-29-2015 at 10:32 PM.

  2. #2
    I'd suggest contacting LV. The PM-V11 blades I have sharpen up very nicely.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  3. #3
    Okay, I’ve been experimenting with this and tried sharpening the shooting plane’s iron for much longer on each stone. I spent maybe 30 sec to 1 minute on the diamond stone and was finally able to feel a burr on the back, the first time I’ve been able to do so on this steel. I then did about 30 seconds on my 15k stone and noticed a tiny wire burr peeling away from the cutting edge, like a super thin wire. So I kept at it and did another 30 seconds, then ruler-tricked the back.
    And it is now sharp as hell, exactly the same as my equivalent A2 iron when cutting paper. I popped the now-sharpened PM-V11 blade into my jack (nice that the shooting and jack plane blades are interchangeable), and it works flawlessly. The shaving curled up tightly, but I stretched it out and took a picture:




    This is amazing to me because I did the same thing when the blade first arrived… lots of time on each stone, but didn’t achieve anything like this edge.
    So I have two theories. I could not be spending enough time on each stone to properly form and remove a burr. Or possibly they grind the edge thin before tempering the steel, making the steel too soft for the first few sharpenings… and now I’ve broken through to the properly hardened/tempered core.
    I’m going to try sharpening the 50 degree blade again next. I’ll report my findings. Thanks for the help.

  4. #4
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    I use a variety of the Rob Cosman freehand sharpening technique
    I am not at all familiar with this method.

    I do know my one PM-V11 gave me a bit of trouble when it was new in my shop. It is a harder metal, the beauty of it is when it is sharp, it stays sharp longer than any of my other blades.

    Whenever I have a problem with sharpening in my shop I stop and go back to the basics. Single bevel with nothing fancy until there is sharpness.

    If your hands are not locked in position as the blade is going back and fourth, you are likely to get a rounded edge.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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  5. #5
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    I only have experience with the PM-V11 chisels, which did not seem much different to sharpen than A2 and the edge holds up to plenty of chopping.
    Shiny doesn't necessarily mean it's sharp. I wonder if your edge hasn't been dubbed perhaps from an errand swipe or from the back side when lifting it off your stones. I would reform the secondary bevel, making sure that you have raised a burr across the whole length of the blade.
    I might consider adding some intermediary stones. Jumping from 1000 diamond to 15000 is a pretty huge leap and seems potentially problematic . I currently sharpen 1000/3000/10000 using Sigma Power II's, or 1000/4000/8000 using Nortons. I also use a honing jig, which I have found to be idiot proof (I test it everytime I use it ).
    "Aus so krummem Holze, als woraus der Mensch gemacht ist, kann nichts ganz Gerades gezimmert werden."

  6. #6
    I was able to get my 50 degree PM-V11 blade sharp finally. I again spent 30s - 1 minute on each stone and was able to feel the burr before removing it on the 15k. Looks like I just needed to spend about 2-4x more time than I do on A2/O1... this stuff is really wear-resistant. Here is a shaving I took with the blade on the same stubborn piece of walnut, against the grain:



    It left a great surface and pushed without much resistance (other than from the high angle). So thanks for all the help, sorry I'm so inept. I'm glad I was able to work this out, as I just ordered a couple more planes from LV's cyber monday sale .

  7. #7
    Bonus pic of my freshly sharpened shooter:



    It cut that walnut real good.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Jordan View Post
    I own a couple PM-V11 steel blades for my Veritas planes and I can never seem to get them as sharp as I expect.

    Even after several sharpening cycles, my shooting plane's stock PM-V11 blade has trouble slicing paper and isn't all that good at cutting the end grain of even cherry or pine. Shooting with my LA jack equipped with a 25 deg A2 blade does a far better job.

    I also just sharpened up a brand new 50 deg PM-V11 blade for my LA jack, but despite looking shiny it feels dull to the touch, can't slice paper, and just bounces across straight-grained walnut when testing the cut. Here is what the blade looks like after sharpening:



    I spent maybe 30 sec to 1 minute on the diamond stone and was finally able to feel a burr on the back, the first time I’ve been able to do so on this steel. I then did about 30 seconds on my 15k stone and noticed a tiny wire burr peeling away from the cutting edge, like a super thin wire. So I kept at it and did another 30 seconds, then ruler-tricked the back.
    Hi Allen

    A couple of points:

    The sharpening system (1000/15000) you have is inefficient on anything but a micro bevel. You will still get a blade sharp, but it will take a longer time to do so. By contrast, I hone the same blade with a fresh grind in roughly 20 seconds. And it is sharp enough to cleanly pare end grain radiata pine (horrible wood!).

    It is not just the stones I use, but I do not ask a stone to do more than it is designed to do. You are asking your 15000 to do the work of a 5000 stone ... before it also does the work of a 15000 stone. That takes more time and effort. As an example (and not intended as a recommendation), I use Shapton Pro 1000, and Sigma 6000 and 13000.

    Are you honing a micro bevel or a secondary bevel? It looks secondary (good), but the primary bevel looks very steep (bad). If the primary bevel is greater than 25 degrees, you cannot hone a camber efficiently. Your blades look straight across. Straight blades cannot take deep shavings and will leave tracks, even if the shavings are very thin. To efficiently create a camber on a BU plane blade, start with a 25 degree primary bevel, and then use a secondary bevel to add in the desired camber. The secondary bevel will add the necessary steepness to create the desired included angle.

    Please read this article: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...aneBlades.html

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  9. #9
    Allen,

    It is hard to diagnose a sharpening problem just from a photo and I know I'm late to the party but let me add a thought or two.

    The first photo on the right end of the blade is a sliver of reflected light, if there is reflected light anywhere along the edge it is not sharp. You mentioned time a couple of times, that you sharpened for a time and/or number of strokes which make no never mind, what is important is what you noticed in reply #3 & #6, work on a stone until you can feel a small wire edge, go to the next stone remove that wire edge and raise another. repeat until you reach your finish stone. Work the finish stone to the point where the remaining scratch pattern is smooth to your eye and you can not see any reflected light and both back and bevel are smooth to touch. Polish does not make sharp, my sharpest longest lasting iron will have a slight haze. There is also little reason to test for sharp, if it looks sharp and feels sharp it is sharp.

    I'm glad you worked out your problem.

    ken

  10. #10
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    Grind the primary bevel until the secondary bevel is nearly gone, or gone entirely, then restablish the secondary bevel and keep it very slim.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  11. #11
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    I agree with Derek: You have a very blunt looking secondary bevel there,and you need to get at least one intermediate stone to go between the diamond stone and the final hone.

  12. #12
    Derek, thanks for the feedback... I've been consulting a lot of your plane reviews lately so I really value your information. For my sharpening technique, I leave the factory bevel as the "primary bevel". I lift the edge slightly on the 1k stone to make a secondary bevel, going until I feel the burr, then lift the edge slightly more on the 15k to make a tertiary bevel. I also press harder on each corner for about 2 seconds on the 15k stone to make a very slight camber. Theoretically on each step I'm only removing the thin bit of steel right at the edge, so it doesn't need the in-between grits. I have to be careful not to increase the primary bevel too much while doing this. So far this technique has worked great for years on every O1 and A2 blade I've thrown at it, but I think I'm seeing its limitations with the very wear-resistant PM-V11. I have 5k and 8k stones I could use as intermediate steps, it's just hard to maintain angles when freehand sharpening over many stones... maybe I'll try out a Paul Sellers style rocking bevel.

    The blade in the picture had a factory-ground 50 deg bevel. I ordered it long before I read your description of just honing a 50 degree bevel on a 25 deg blade... nowadays I would just order the 25. I may still grind it back to 25 degrees someday on my stationary sander. I've noticed that honing such a steep bevel freehand is difficult and prone to catches on the stones.

  13. #13
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    That will work but the more often you repeat the process the more often you will cheat and raise the bevel further. That's the reasoning behind my advice, you reset the process every time, which will eliminate raising the bevel too far.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  14. #14
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    Brian,

    At the sake of sounding as though I'm disagreeing with you, I'll state that one only has to grind back far enough to ensure that the secondary bevel will be fully in new metal. In most cases that means that there is no need to grind all the way back to the primary bevel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Grind the primary bevel until the secondary bevel is nearly gone, or gone entirely, then restablish the secondary bevel and keep it very slim.
    Marty Schlosser
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Jordan View Post
    Derek, thanks for the feedback...

    The blade in the picture had a factory-ground 50 deg bevel. I ordered it long before I read your description of just honing a 50 degree bevel on a 25 deg blade... nowadays I would just order the 25. I may still grind it back to 25 degrees someday on my stationary sander. I've noticed that honing such a steep bevel freehand is difficult and prone to catches on the stones.
    Hi Allen

    I would seriously doubt that you are getting any camber on that blade. A few strokes at the sides of a 50+ degree bevel angle would do very little. The staight and even shaving you posted indicate this is so.

    BU plane blades are one place where I recommend using a honing guide. I freehand all other blades, except BU plane blades. The honing guide offers reliability and repeatability of the bevel angle, and this is important on a BU plane. When you lift the edge, you really do not know what you are ending up with. A few extra degrees will reduce the "sharpness".

    I most certainly would NOT follow Paul Sellers' advice on BU planes. I think PS is an excellent woodworker, and I have learned a lot from him, but he has incorrect ideas about BU planes. Most notably, his sharpening method is too imprecise for a BU plane on interlocked wood. He complains that BU planes tear out, but I see him sharpening at about 30 degrees, as he does for all his planes. That would end up with a cutting angle of about 42 degrees - far too low for most woods, let alone complex grain.

    Try a blade with a 25 degree primary bevel, and a 50 degree secondary ... and use a honing guide.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

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