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Thread: Veritas Nutsaver

  1. #31
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    I guess LN are not risking creating too many hostages to fortune with the very moderate knurling on the brass thumb nuts they have used - getting those tight may not be the easiest either.

    Another variable (with screw head diameter and lumpiness in the case of finger tightening, or hex heads/screwdriver slots where tools are used - or the nutsaver which may not be a bad solution if it works well) that stands to significantly increase the available clamping force would be to use a finer pitch of thread on the stud. With the previously mentioned stronger stud material if needed.

    There's another couple of potential issues that could quickly follow though. One is that the relatively short aluminium thread the studs screw into could easily strip - these casting grades of aluminium tend not to be the strongest ever. No designer will want to create a situation (by adding a screwdriver slot or hex head, or a fine pitch thread) where a clamping screw is easily done up tight enough for this to happen.

    Another is that having the nut bear directly down on a slot as in the case of the LV skew rabbet and LN plough depth stops (without an intervening anti rotation pad) risks problems with it deforming as a result of the strips of metal each side of it bending/being pushed out sideways under the torque that gets applied by the thumb nut - unless that is they are thick and strong. (which broadly they are - relative to the thumb nuts used) This is a common problem elsewhere. It's not good that they are unmachined castings with irregular surfaces either. Neither is great engineering practice, but if done it's at least important that everything is flat/square/parallel and well finished in the clamping sandwich or the risk of problems will greatly increase and the grip and accuracy of alignment reduce. i.e. if the nut doesn't simultaneously touch down over the entire surface it will tend to disturb the stop setting as it tightens too.

    Clamping surface area and finish are also big factors. It's best as above that the mating areas are accurately flat, and for example i wouldn't be keen on the way that the depth stop on the LV skew rabbet is powder coated either. Not given my experience of how slippery what's likely the same (polyester powder coating?) is on the jaws of the Mk 2 honing guide, and the likelihood that the cast and coated surface is in engineering terms probably quite lumpy. It's very likely that skimming/machining the clamping surfaces of the depth stops to make them accurately flat and parallel, and to expose bare metal would greatly improve the grip - although wear/galling/pick up could then become an eventual issue in the case of especially the cast aluminium LV stop.

    It's not great practice either to have a screw threaded in a collar bear directly on a sliding rod as in the case of the LN plow plane. It risks marking the rod, the precision of location depends to a fair degree on the shape of the tip of the screw (tightening an irregularly tipped screw may cause movement), and the short aluminium thread that's only possible in the collar invites stripping with even moderate tightening.

    Indirect locking with a split collar with a through clamping screw at right angles is a much better deal. This principle: http://www.bearingsrus.co.uk/single-split-shaft-collar - much as in a collet, but the collar in our case would likely be an integral part of the casting. The collar grips all around the rod/can be made longer if needed/can have lots of surface area so heavy tightening isn't needed, the hole can easily be made to an accurate diameter tolerance and surface finish, and the boss can be shaped so there's plenty of thread depth for the clamping screw.

    A good quality dial gauge stand with accurately toleranced and well finished rods and inner clamp surfaces and decent sized hand knobs demonstrates these principles very nicely - it nips up really solidly with only moderate tightening of the knobs: http://www.machine-dro.co.uk/eclipse...tic-stand.html Not for nothing do they cost multiples of what a cheap one does...

    The trouble is that the better arrangements tend to cost more. For all of the above there's not necessarily any absolute engineering rights or wrongs in this stuff - the task is to find a solution that works reliably and well at what is a fairly moderate price point, and simultaneously gives an acceptably long service life…
    Last edited by ian maybury; 10-15-2015 at 8:00 AM.

  2. #32
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    I ran into this problem way back with the Veritas Mk II jig.

    A piece of Tygon clear plastic tubing one each jaw of a pair of pliers. I have a pair of these each end of the shop.

    Leather strapped on with dental floss would also work.

    Seems like a Rube Goldberg situation to me
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  3. #33
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    This is the fix i went for David, there was definitely an issue with the stock Mk 2 honing guide blade clamp from my point of view: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...Fix&highlight= It's worked very well on just about anything that remotely fits in the jig, in that it's killed stone dead any issue of blades slipping/losing sideways alignment - while at the same time it ensures a set of accurately flat clamp faces which mean that even a narrow 3mm chisel maintains accurate vertical alignment off its flat back. It also copes perfectly with the highly sloped and somewhat irregular top side of Japanese chisels - some of mine were inclined to be squeezed backwards and out of the stock clamp.

    I'm not sure what the story on the latest version of the Mk2 jig is, and there's since been the narow blade head made available by Lee Valley which may be a solution to the issue in some cases - but it's pretty clear from the shape of mine that somebody thought of incorporating a facing on the clamps when designing the die casting, but that for some reason it was never fitted in production. Hence the problem of slippery and irregular powder coated clamp faces.

    I should say by the way that the above post regarding the engineering of some adjustment features on the speciality planes mentioned isn't taking a tilt at any maker in particular. Both clearly get forced into making calls on cost/benefit of certain design features. I don't know how well it works, but they at times also go for very elegant solutions - the Veritas small plough plane for example uses a very neat system of locking collects to lock the fence in position. http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/pag...182,48945&ap=1 Another variation on the sort of the split collar based method i was broadly pointing to above - except that a collet uses pressure on an external taper rather than a clamping screw to nip it up. It's in engineering terms a rather more respectable solution than a simple clamping screw.

    What this all tends to say to me though is that i'd carefully check out the engineering details on any plane i was considering buying - especially on small volume production speciality models. On the basis that while there's times that a very good job is done, there's also times when there's some corners cut on good engineering practice in the details….
    Last edited by ian maybury; 10-16-2015 at 12:18 PM.

  4. #34
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    I must say......

    Wow.

    I gotta tell you all that despite my "Rube Goldberg" comment below--I really love how we analyze and dissect the minutiae of stuff here. (Oops....well, to me it is minutiae)

    This is a meeting place of folks who love tools, and they way we can work/modify/buy/store/maintain them, etc....it's not necessarily about WW to me. That's just the medium. It's about the tools.

    So many times, I will read stuff here from the engineering/physics/professional types that I just don't understand.....but I know in the future, if I ever want to get into into it on that level, I can. That is cool.

    And, thanks for not taking offense @ my Rube Goldberg remark...........because I love that guy.
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  5. #35
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    I guess David there's a long standing saying in technical and engineering circles that 'the devil is in the detail'.

    There's also the little fact that it often takes many hours/days/weeks/even years of work to put something to the test, only to find that a brain f*** along the way has reduced the whole deal to an impossible pipe dream. Or means that a supposed solution is only a temporary band aid that will cause ongoing trouble and deliver no peace in use - instead of being the one time reliable fix that was required.

    It tends to pay to go the extra mile on thinking stuff through.

    It's proven time and again. No amount of enthusiasm or wannabe unfortunately sidesteps reality, so those of us that have spent a lot of time in the area seem almost inevitably to have developed a fairly picky mode of working......

  6. #36
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    Sometimes a design decision is made to deliberately have part of an assembly act as the "weakest link" to prevent a more costly piece of the assembly from damage. I have the LV plane with the screw in question, and without doing anything to it, such as roughing the depth stop rod or slotting the screw, the depth stop holds well. Is it possible that some, during the first use, may have over tightened, causing deformation of the screw threads? I don't know. A larger screw is definitely a possibility, as is a different material for the screw.

    Time will tell, if LV gets a few complaints and responds with their findings. For me, it's use as usual.
    If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.

  7. #37
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    Over time, some of my projects have been compromised by a setting becoming loose on one of my planes.

    A few years back it became my habit to check settings when the plane was off the work during a return stroke. On the planes that have had the most problem with this, notably a Record #778, it is second nature to check the three bolts that are likely to loosen. They are the two on the fence and the depth stop bolt. Now the bolts are given a little extra torque with a small pliers. Haven't had a problem since.

    I have no experience with the LV planes mentioned in this thread. My first try would be to hold the shaft in some coarse sandpaper and give it a few turns. If the bolt is brass, I would be very careful about using anything to increase the torque.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  8. #38
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    Interesting read. Thanks to all who posted their thoughts.

    I thought the reason to purchase a premium hand plane was to avoid such issues.
    If I still have to fool around with getting something as simple as a depth stop on a premium plane to hold. May as well do it on a $10 flea market find.
    "Remember back in the day, when things were made by hand, and people took pride in their work?"
    - Rick Dale

  9. #39
    Make no mistake, we're all splitting hairs in a weird pursuit of perfection. The Veritas Skew Rabbet plane truly works "just fine" as is, and indeed it works better than anything else available IMO. For me, the biggest reason to improve it by slitting the screw is the awesome feeling of empowerment it fosters, and the way it exercises a part of my brain that doesn't get exercised in my 'modern' job. After that, I get to come here, and have a group of outstanding like-minded individuals say "Coooool", and tear into a great discussion.

    Now I feel like "fixing" something else.

  10. #40
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    I thought the reason to purchase a premium hand plane was to avoid such issues.
    A premium hand plane will minimize such issues.

    It sounds like a little use of sandpaper is all it takes to make the stop hold its position.

    Sometime I think working with metal is as much of a joy as working with wood.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  11. #41
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    Please pardon my responding directly Dave - but it'd be a pity to interpret some fairly nuanced comments on engineering principles and the very real problems of coming up with functional solutions at acceptable price points as a statement to the effect that none of the products work properly. So called 'high end' or 'premium' planes clearly do a very good job.

    The underlying thought though was that the designers and makers of these products are not remotely handed a financial 'carte blanche'. 'High end' is a very relative term given price points which in engineering terms are still very restrictive. Just figure how much one of these 'expensive' planes has to be made for when manufacturing, wholesale and definitely retail mark ups are figured in - then compare that to the hourly rate for high end toolmaking services. There's always 'high-er' end engineering solutions available, but you wouldn't want to buy a plane at the price that would result if a cost is no object' approach was adopted.

    As earlier 'The trouble is that the better arrangements tend to cost more. For all of the above there's not necessarily any absolute engineering rights or wrongs in this stuff - the task is to find a solution that works reliably and well at what is a fairly moderate price point, and simultaneously gives an acceptably long service life…'

    The companies have to strike this balance, and by and large do a very good job for the customer while somehow managing to stay in business and put out a scarily large number of products.

    That's not to say that there are not
    specific instances on particular tools where one detail isn't a little more prone to issues than others. That's an inevitability we have to accept - although it doesn't mean that we may not find that a given product by one or other maker has some advantages. As Jim said though 'a premium hand plane will minimise such issues'. My guess is that this scenario is more likely to occasionally arise on lower volume speciality stuff - mainstream bench planes for example are probably about as thoroughly refined as is imaginable. It's not as though the sort of issues that pop up are typically show stoppers anyway, they tend more to be of a nature that perhaps requires more careful handling...
    Last edited by ian maybury; 10-18-2015 at 8:21 AM.

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