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Thread: Veritas Nutsaver

  1. #1

    Veritas Nutsaver

    Schwarz is right. This stuff writes itself. Remember Chris's nutsaver article?
    Go read it.

    popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/the-nutsaver-this-stuff-writes-itself

    The article is about a method of tightening the depth stop nut on the tool pictured below. The stop will frequently slip if it's finger tight, and using pliers on soft nuts is unspeakable--even if they're big, and made of brass like the example below.

    IMG_20151011_134243 (Large).jpg

    Here's my recent spin on it on keeping your nuts tight:
    I just cut a screwdriver groove with slitting saw:

    IMG_20151011_165646 (Large).jpg

    For me, it is a WAY more sensible/simple/elegant solution to reach for the chip breaker driver (that's already on the bench) than it is to go get a special-purpose strap wrench.

    IMG_20151011_172247 (Large).jpg

    Now I can snug it up with the same screwdriver I've got with me already!

    IMG_20151011_172237 (Large).jpg

    If I'd not had access to a milling machine and slitting saw, I'd have done the same with a simple auger-bit file like this one:

    http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,320,43072,43089&p=70693
    (Possibly one of my "all time favorite tools of all time")

    The screw under that big brass knob is a SMALL #10-32, so any self-respecting neanderthal could easily twist the head off with a big driver like the one shown. Obviously a screwdriver can't work on the fence nuts, but I've not had any trouble with my fence slipping. Supposedly, a bit of texture on the rods with fine sandpaper is highly effective for that. AND it's simpler and faster than trying to get a strap.

    I hope this helps!
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 10-18-2015 at 8:20 AM.

  2. #2
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    Here's my recent spin on it on keeping your nuts tight:
    I just cut a screwdriver groove with slitting saw:
    For my plane they could be changed out. There are some from a later plane in my spare parts with the slots already there.

    I made one of the nutsavers:

    Nut Twister.jpg

    It is nice, but this plane doesn't have much of a problem.

    My Record #0778 tends to have a problem. For that a small pair of pliers is used with great care. There is some leather around to pad the jaws. I tried making permanent jaw booties, but that wasn't the answer.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  3. #3
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    Maybe I've got vise grip type fingers because I've never had the depth stop slip, and I've used them a fair bit over the years.
    Sent from the bathtub on my Samsung Galaxy(C)S5 with waterproof Lifeproof Case(C), and spell check turned off!

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    Maybe I've got vise grip type fingers because I've never had the depth stop slip...
    My grip is not as good as it used to be. My faithful companion is also involved, Arthur as in Arthur Rightus.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  5. #5
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    There is a long thread here on the trials and tribulations of one who stuffed up the nut on their plow.

    I've been writing for a few years now about adding a slot to the screw face ..



    When I saw the article on CS's blog, my first thought was "great idea". Later, when the owner of the busted screw described how he busted it - by twisting - I realised that there was something amiss with this method, and did some research. This is what I wrote on that thread (and now open for debate) ..

    I am not an mechanical engineer, and indeed the courses I did in this area 40 years ago are lost in the mists of time as I strayed far from it. However something was nagging at the back of what is left of my brain, and I have done a limited amount of research.

    What was nagging me is how shear failure occurs, and whether a screw slot is better/worse than a pair of vise grips.

    I suspect that my instinct is correct, but others with the correct qualifications to comment are encouraged to comment. This is all aside from what LV come up with as a retrofittable solution - I have no idea what their plan is.

    Here's how I see it (correctly or incorrectly): forces at the outside of a bolt head will act differently to forces at the centre of the screw. Excess force either way is bad, but forces at the outside of the bolt head will be bad regardless.

    Part of the reason for the latter is that the outside forces can force the bolt shaft to twist, and this is what leads to shearing. A screw slot, by contrast, centres the forces - one is more likely to strip the slot if the down force is applied off centre.

    One article I found that echos this is here (page 643): http://scholarsmine.mst.edu/cgi/view...context=isccss

    "The typical failure mode observed in all tests was a combination of screw pull- out (tension failure), tilting of the screw (shear failure), and bearing of the sheet (shear failure). However, the normal- and low-ductility specimens did perform differently with respect to deformation and strength."

    If I have understood this correctly, this tends to support the use of a screw slot, and explains why any form of vise grip, or similar, can be dangerous.

    Please, I am not taking responsibility for those cutting screw slots - as I mentioned, mine are shallow and I do not over-tighten.

    Perhaps LV will come up with a bolt that uses an Allen head. That would centre down force automatically.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 10-13-2015 at 8:13 AM. Reason: Removed link to forum

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    Not having one of these I don't know how much force you guys are talking about, however, if it takes a lot of torque then a slot is not a good approach. The problem, as anyone who has ever tried to tighten a slot screw head (or loosen a tight one) is that as the force required to tighten/loosen goes up, the resulting torque on the slot cause the screwdriver to want to creep up in the slot. You overcome this by bearing down very hard on the driver to resist the torque effect on the screw driver tip / slot. Derek's idea of an allen screw makes much more sense, but frankly, I question why the knurled screw head isn't enough to do the job. Perhaps it is too small? A larger head would provide better grip by a very significant amount, that coupled with the increased leverage of the bigger head diameter (as compared to the actual screw diameter) should be all that is needed.

  7. #7
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    I don't have one of these planes,but I know that brass is a slippery metal. That is why the nuts require excessive force to tighten,I'm pretty sure. What is the cure? Make these nuts out of steel?(Then they could mar the shafts). Increase the diameter of the threaded portion(which might require making a whole new casting for the body of the plane), Increase the size of the knurled head? Would that make a finger grip sufficient? Make the heads into thumb screws(That will allow more torque to be exerted with the fingers.

    Something here is definitely under engineered. I'm leaning toward increasing the diameter of the threaded portion and perhaps make the nut out of steel,with a brass tip to not mar the shafts. Go with either the flat thumb screw or the screwdriver slot.

    Since LV is unlikely to make a whole new casting pattern for the body,and replace all the ones they have sold,a steel screw made of high tensile steel ought to add good strength to the screw against shearing off. That would require less drastic measures than making a whole new casting for the body.

    Unless LV makes their screw out of high tensile steel,use of an Allen head will just wring off the threads even more effectively than a screw driver. You can buy black hardened allen head screws from machinist supply places. A good stainless steel one would also be a decent option. But will have to buy a box of 100,I expect.

    You could saw a very short piece of brass to drop into the hole,to prevent marring the shafts.

    I used to go to the local Fastenal store wanting a few screws. They would just give them to me. But,that depends upon the employees present. We had a nice young woman at ours. Since I retired,I haven't been there.
    Last edited by george wilson; 10-13-2015 at 10:05 AM.

  8. #8
    In spite of all of the backyard engineering being related in these threads about the LV brass nuts, I doubt that the final solution will involve just putting a screwdriver slot in the thumbscrew. If you desire to shear the threads even sooner than file away on it. Presumably, Lee Valley is designing a replacement that will be robust enough for the job. The current design is inadequate for the task. It either should have been left off entirely (it is called the "Small" plow plane, after all), and sold for a lower price; or a really serviceable one put on. Unfortunately, neither happened. If you read the prior thread, a fix is in the works. All prior purchased plows will receive it, according to Mr. Lee. Why not just wait and see?

  9. #9
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    Sorry Mike,as a professional tool maker,I don't consider my post as "back yard engineering". The best solution is going to be(as much as I like brass!) To make the screws out of stronger metal,with a brass tip,if necessary.

    Wait and see if Mr. Lee's fix isn't along those lines. I doubt he will want to enlarge the screw threads. That would mean fixing all the existing planes to accept larger threads,or altering the castings.
    Last edited by george wilson; 10-13-2015 at 10:12 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Sorry Mike,as a professional tool maker,I don't consider my post as "back yard engineering". The best solution is going to be(as much as I like brass!) To make the screws out of stronger metal,with a brass tip,if necessary.
    Would it help if the brass tip/ insert had a concave radius on one end to increase the contact area with the shaft? Might not be practical in a manufacturing environment but something I'd do.

    A flat on the shaft would accomplish the same thing I guess.

  11. #11
    Sorry to offend you George, but if a screwdriver slot was appropriate, I'm reasonably sure the tool makers at LV would have used them. No disrespect intended. Many companies in other industries would consider your recommendation as voiding any product warranty. Even Derek backed off on his recommendation for a home-made slot.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ashton View Post
    Maybe I've got vise grip type fingers because I've never had the depth stop slip, and I've used them a fair bit over the years.
    Same here. Never had a slip. Some people could be using too much downward force or a dull blade. I prefer to work with hands rather a tool for adjustments whenever possible -- quick and simple. Of course, in some cases, say a plane hammer is necessary for fine tuning.

    Simon

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    The problem of adjustments slipping on plow planes isn't a new one.

    Stanley encountered it with the early versions of many of their planes. Like my #50 in an earlier post the #45 had knurling on the edges as the only tightening method. Not everyone had a problem with this. Stanley changed the head to have a slot. My #50 holds a setting all day long. I do have some old screws from a #45 that were modified, poorly, by an earlier owner.

    The problem for LV is everyone who bought one of their planes will likely want "the fix" whether they are having a problem with their plane or not. Maybe their best solution would be to ship everyone a Nutsaver tool or to make their own tool that allows a little more tightening of the screw but not enough for the over zealous among us to twist the screw into failure.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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    Are we talking about the plow plane, the skew rabbet plane, or both?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowell holmes View Post
    Are we talking about the plow plane, the skew rabbet plane, or both?
    I thought we were talking about every plane with unslotted, knurled grip nuts or bolts that slip, the most modern example of which is the Veritas plow plane.

    Though I may be mistaken, it wouldn't be my first rodeo around being wrong.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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