What is your experience with "euro-machine" customer service?

[Alan Hick]

The "euro machines" : Martin, Format 4, Felder, Hammer, Minimax, Agazzani, etc., tend to be expensive. And for many if not all of them a buyer has to essentially custom order whatever machine he's buying. The machine is then built, shipped, and delivered at some later date. And I think this sets the expectation that, for the price premium, things would go swimmingly thereafter. But sometimes this is not the case. And then there are 3 possibilities:
1. The problem is so bad that the machine needs to be replaced.
2. The problem is something that can be "fixed" over the phone by talking to a technician and learning what to do.
3. The problem needs an onsite visit from a factory trained technician.

For those who have "higher end" machines and have had to deal with customer service after the sale, what has been your experience? Was the process of getting help easy, or difficult? Fast or slow? Was the manual any help?
If you've owned your machines for a long time (say 10 years or more) and needed assistance initially, and again recently, have things gotten better, or worse? If you needed onsite tech support, how did that work?

For instance, with Felder, it doesn't matter if the machine is brand new, or years old. If a technician has to come to your shop, you get to pay for his travel time--charged at $65.00/hr, airfare, and the hourly fee charged in the shop, which right now is $95.00/hr. They will try to arrange for the technician to visit other shops in the area during that trip, and thus split the travel costs, but if nobody else needs service, it's all on you. Maybe this is common in the industry, I don't know.

I've read good reviews and bad reviews about customer service on just about every manufacturer out there. But there aren't that many of them, and of those there aren't many that are current--say within the last couple years. I'm not really interested in the machine reputation, so much, as that just ends up being a Ford vs Chevy argument. I'm only interested in customer service experiences. I know I stipulated the "Euro-machines" but if someone wants to weigh in on Northfield customer service, or another "high-end" manufacturer that isn't in europe, that's okay. Thanks.

[Erik Loza]

Alan, I've worked for two of the players you mentioned and will give you my thoughts.

First, you need to clarify which machines we are talking about. Any Martin, machine, for example, will automatically include a tech to set it up. You can't set up one of those yourself. This would be the case for any machine, regardless of brand, that has electronics. You would not have to deal with most of your concerns because part of the price you pay will include dealer install, service, and support. Now, regarding Minimax (and some SCM) as well as some of those other brands, the price you pay generally DOES NOT include setup or install, unless you specifically pay for that service. For example, most owners will never need a tech to set up or even to service a bandsaw. It's a simple machine that does not warrant that level of mfr. support. Here are how I personally handle the specific issues you are asking about:

1.) "The problem is so bad that the machine needs to be replaced". This is very rare but does happen and is almost always the result of freight damage. Minor freight damage, ordinarily I will direct SCM's parts department to ship out the needed parts and the customer can just re-fit them, himself. The only time I would replace an entire machine is if the damage was catastrophic or if there were some issue that just made more sense from a monetary perspective, to have the customer put the machine back on the pallet and have me ship him a new one. But that is very rare.

2.) The problem is something that can be "fixed" over the phone by talking to a technician and learning what to do. This is the most common scenario and that is exactly what how I handle it. In the vast majority of cases, this is all that is needed. It is assumed that the owner will have a willingness to roll his sleeves up and help solve the issue.

3.) The problem needs an onsite visit from a factory trained technician. Again, very rare. The more complicated the machine, the higher the chance and it almost always is the electronics.

The labor rate you mentioned for travel is fair and is normal in the industry. I will be the first to say that the one area any of the mfrs. could benefit from is more tech support staff. That is an industry-wide situation. You can never have enough techs or service guys.

The best advice I can give you (or anyone) who is buying Euro machinery is that you need to be willing to do some work on your end and be prepared to act outside your comfort zone. Be that wrangling machines from the curbside to your shop, troubleshooting electrics yourself, being persistent on the phone with tech support, or perhaps paying to have the tech handle it all for you. This is industrial machinery, not shoes from Zappos. Once that truck shows up, it's yours. The only customers customers I've ever had that were totally dissatisfied (and there aren't many) were ones who, the moment something went askew of their plans, took the approach of, "I paid THIS much, so shouldn't have to lift a finger", or started issuing threats and ultimatums right off the bat. That's setting yourself up for unhappiness. In other words, you will need to be involved at possibly a number of different levels if an issue does come up.

This is blunt talk but I hope it helps. Best of luck with your research.

Erik

[Rich Enders]

Alan,

I am on my second Euro Combo machine. A Euroshop purchased from Old World Machinery in the late 90's, and a CU300 Classic purchased from MiniMax in 2007. I sold the Euroshop to a model maker when I moved to Arizona. The only problem with the Euroshop was rust due to my location near the ocean. For that problem Old World came out and de-rusted the whole machine, and taught me how to maintain it.

After about a year a motor starter switch failed on the CU300. Tech support at MiniMax walked me step by step through the diagnostics on the phone. Once convinced what the problem was they sent me the replacement components no charge, next day. I recently replaced the drive belts on the J/P with assistance from the MM chat site, but I have had no other need for assistance.

The manuals that came with both the machines are mostly a joke. Maybe a 1-5 on a scale of 10.

[Alan Hick]

And...........we're back. Some of you may notice what's missing.

Thank you Erik, Rich, And John. John, that's quite a story and a lot of information. Exactly what I was hoping for--the BUYERS' experience, good or bad. I have a hypothesis that I'm hoping to share, but it will depend on how many participants weigh in with their tales of woe or tales of bliss.

[Erik Loza]

John Hudson: For the record, "commisioning" is also available for any Minimax machine as well. Most folks don't go for it, due to the added cost, but it's an option. Also, just based on my experience, most owners want to own adjustment tools and I have yet to see any full combo machine that arrived, totally dialed in. I'm your sales rep. Call me any time you need support or help. offer good for the lifetime of your machine. I sense there is nothing I might be able to do to make you a happy owner but my door is always open.

Alan, I don't know what's missing but the one piece of advice I will give to anyone who is thinking about a Euro machine is "Ask a lot of questions". And I don't mean specs-type questions. Questions like, "If there's damage, what do I do? What level of support should I be expected to do, myself? What should my expectation for it or finish be? Does cosmetic damage affect functonality?". I personally wish some customers would ask more questions. Then, we understand their expectations and that's when the customer has the chance to be most satisfied. Glad this thread is back up.

Erik

[Bill Adamsen]

Most of these machines can be maintained with standard bearings, extrusions, belts, brakes, etc. As long as the documentation is available you should be able to keep it running and even modify or fabricate parts. Really, is it that different from trying to keep an Oliver, Fay & Egan, Yates, Greenlee or Wysong tool running? (Well, less electronics perhaps).

[Alan Hick]

Bill,
What you said is true. But I'm asking about customer service experiences. If you don't believe in customer service, and think that people should buy a machine only if they can fix everything on it, including getting on an engine lathe or milling machine and fabricating replacements for broken parts, that's great. But that only espouses an opinion--essentially reiterating your signature line. it doesn't answer or pertain to the question I asked. And the documentation for these machines is notoriously bad, and typically printed in German or Italian without enough pictures or schematic diagrams to be of any help. Thanks anyway.

[peter gagliardi]

My experience with my Martin machines from a customer service standpoint has been very good to excellent. It's true, they do bring it in and set it up, though most of the time there is little for them to do. They make the final wire hookup, and airline if need be, shim and level. The machine comes pretty much dialed right in. Any, and I mean any time I call them, on my new stuff, or my 45 year old stuff, they are polite and helpful, as much as they can be- they don't retain a lot of info on the old stuff. But, they will call or email Germany to get whatever info they can.
On my SCM sander, the times I have called, I have gotten cooperative and helpful info each time.

[Todd Willhoit]

Alan,
Which Euro machines do you own? How does your Euro machine customer service experience compare to your experience for similar price/performance industrial U.S.Asian machines?

Customer service requirements for my combo machine have been minimal, and the support experience with Minimax was excellent.

[David Kumm]

I'm mainly a used guy and like to do my own thing, but I have had good luck with Pete at SCM. Keep in mind that SCM makes a bunch of machines and changes then every few years so there are literally hundreds of versions out there. Not likely that even the tech guys will have a handle on all of them. You get some basic ideas but must be prepared to do some of your own pinpointing and thinking. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

I have one European made machine that I bought new. I didn't have any problems, but in the USA you don't deal with the manufacturer for this brand, you deal with the importer. I haven't experienced their customer service directly, but what I've seen second hand has been outstanding on their part.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I've purchased 4 Hammer items in the last 10 years.

I first purchased an A3-31 jointer/planer which arrived in perfect condition, they dropped it off in my garage and I moved it into my basement. I didn't have any issues with it.

I then purchased a B3 Winner, this one was custom ordered to have all the features I wanted, once again dropped off in my garage, I moved it into the basement myself. This one was missing a bag of parts for the shaper guard, Felder provided me with a new bag of parts promptly.

I purchased a stock feeder, which somehow missed the Canadian electrical approval process, I phoned Felder, they advised me to cut the cord off of it, and exchanged it for another one.

Last item, I purchased a second A3-31 as I had given my first one to my brother. No issues with it.

As indicated in another post, Felder will try to combine trips to reduce your costs, they did that for me on all my deliveries.

I have spoken to customers who had warranty service from Felder and were very happy with the service.

Admittedly I have an advantage, I live in Toronto and there is a Felder factory dealership here, not a reseller, but a Felder company location...........Regards, Rod.

P.S. When I purchased a General tablesaw it had a problem, General sent a tech to my house at no cost to rectify the issue. Just thought I would add that as a North American company comparison.

[Scott DelPorte]

A few years ago I placed an order for a MM20. When it finally arrived at the freight terminal, it turned out they had shipped a MM24 by accident. I cant really remember, but I think I had ordered a demo machine and they shipped it directly from a show and mixed it up somehow. MiniMax caught the mistake before it arrived at my shop, and I think it was Erik who called and basically said I could either take the MM24 at no additional cost, or I could refuse it, and they would ship it back and send me a MM20 like I had ordered. This was a great deal for me since I had high enough ceilings and enough floorspace to house the larger machine, so I gladly accepted the MM24. When it arrived the crate was damaged a little, but everything looked to be fine so I signed off on the shipment. When I set it up, I looked at the table and there was about a .030" step in the table surface right where the slot for the blade was. My immediate reaction was that it was bent in transit, and I should ask them to send out a new one that was flat.

I called MiniMax to see if I could send the table back. They explained it was probably fine, and even though it looked pretty far from flat, I could use the four mounting bolts to adjust table flatness. They said if it wouldn't work, they would exchange it, but to please give it a good try. It took a little while to fiddle with it, but to my surprise, I was able to dial it in and get it nice and flat, and it cuts great. I have never had to adjust it since. No regrets. It is a great machine, and I wish every manufacturer would make mistakes and send me upgrades by accident.

[Rod Sheridan]

That was real win/win situation for you Scott................Regards, Rod.

[Adrian Anguiano]

John, I think having the tools have perfect alignment out the box is a little extreme. I have Jet, Powermatic, Rikon, Grizzly, and a lot of other smaller brands. Never has a machine arrived perfectly square, or aligned. They all required shimming or adjustments. Now if they cannot be adjusted square that is a problem, but they should all be able to be adjusted perfect. Once adjusted normally they stay perfect with checking once a season. When the tool comes they look "pretty" but after 2 yrs of use. Glue drips, water from wood moisture, accidental scrapes and hits, stain or finish sprays, the tools will not be perfect cosmetically anymore and its not worth the crying when you buy them that they are perfect. Most send a can a paint.