Griggio Unica Slider

[Erik Loza]

Erik, why not? I personally think it is great that a major slider manufacturer is investing in this technology. This is the type of machine I would be very interested in purchasing, although needs to come on a CU300 or CU410 type of combo. Accidents can and do happen, technology to save is always welcome.

Frank, would you be willing to pay another $4K-$5K to have this feature on your combo machine? Everything is possible but will the consumer pay for it? That's the real question.

Erik

[Frank Martin]

Frank, would you be willing to pay another $4K-$5K to have this feature on your combo machine? Everything is possible but will the consumer pay for it? That's the real question.

Erik

I certainly would if it had the same functionality on all 5 functions. Just for the saw, probably another $2-$3k or so.

[John Lankers]

I promise no SS bashing .
Here is a link to a website that explains how they pulled it off http://www.fdmcdigital.com/ArticleDe...2/Default.aspx

[Erik Loza]

It will be very interesting to see how the system works mechanically. To retract and stop a 14-16" blade is a whole different deal than the 10" max used until now. The stress on the arbor assembly and bearings must be much higher. Seeing how the build is beefed up to deal with that stress interests me more than the politics of the discussion. Dave

Out of curiosity, I went to Griggio's homepage to read about it, hoping they might discuss the saw unit. Huge surprise: Nothing. Probably all hush-hush and patented. I did notice one curious thing though: This machine has a small motor for its class: Only 7.5hp. Every other 16" slider starts at 9hp, including Griggio's the other big sliders in Griggio's lineup. Perhaps they have to downsize the motor in order to fit the whole mechanism inside the cabinet?

Erik

[Rick Fisher]

Griggio and Martin do business together. I wonder if they will both share this technology ?

To me, this is a game changer. Sliding table saws are very often run by employees and employers have to make employees as safe as reasonably possible. $4K for this technology on a 4 year lease .. is $100 a month.

[Erik Loza]

...Here is a link to a website that explains how they pulled it off http://www.fdmcdigital.com/ArticleDe...2/Default.aspx

Thanks for sharing that link. Something strikes me as funny, though. The statement talleges that there are "19 accidents a day" on panel saws in Germany. OK, let's run with that. If we are to take that statement at face value, that 19 operators are injured by sawblades a day (since that is the technology in question, right?). Factoring out eight weeks for Holidays during August and then other holidays like Christmas and so on, we can roughly say that a German cabinet maker works 10 months a year. 10 months divided by a 5-day work week = 200 work days.

200 work days X "19 injuries per day" = 3,800 injuries in German mill shops that result in injury to the hand.

3,800????

Now, I'm not certainly not going to accuse anyone of exaggerting or of twisting statistics but will say this: I have sold hundreds of sliding panel saws over the last ten years and guess how many owners I am personally aware of who have lost a finger? None. Furthermore, I do tend to hear about if someone gets hurt on an SCMi slider and honestly, can't tell you the last time that happened. I'm not saying that I know it all but sliders are pretty darn safe as they are and also, think about why somebody wants to sell you something. Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik

[John Lankers]

Thanks for sharing that link. Something strikes me as funny, though. The statement talleges that there are "19 accidents a day" on panel saws in Germany. OK, let's run with that. If we are to take that statement at face value, that 19 operators are injured by sawblades a day (since that is the technology in question, right?). Factoring out eight weeks for Holidays during August and then other holidays like Christmas and so on, we can roughly say that a German cabinet maker works 10 months a year. 10 months divided by a 5-day work week = 200 work days.

200 work days X "19 injuries per day" = 3,800 injuries in German mill shops that result in injury to the hand.

3,800????

Now, I'm not certainly not going to accuse anyone of exaggerting or of twisting statistics but will say this: I have sold hundreds of sliding panel saws over the last ten years and guess how many owners I am personally aware of who have lost a finger? None. Furthermore, I do tend to hear about if someone gets hurt on an SCMi slider and honestly, can't tell you the last time that happened. I'm not saying that I know it all but sliders are pretty darn safe as they are and also, think about why somebody wants to sell you something. Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik

Erik, according to "Berufsgenossenschaft Holz und Metall" http://www.steine-und-erden.net/se513/kreissaegen.html there are roughly 14,500 table saw related accidents per year in Germany alone.
I can't believe either that 3800 woodworkers are being injured on sliders every year given the stringent safety regulations and education programs in Germany.
I own a Felder and you know, better than I do, there is no need to stand in the line of kickback ever and with the use of holddowns or "Fritz and Franz" your hands never have to be in the danger zone - not saying accidents can't happen.

[Erik Loza]

John, that link shows a contractor-type table saw (assuming I read it right) rather than a slider. I'm not taking issue with anything or arguing with anyone, just saying that we cannot apply statistics from jobsite-level tools to true sliding table saws. There are probably 1,000X the jobsite saws in operation as their are sliding table saws. So, I wonder if any of these "X-many guys got hurt" statistics apply to sliders at all?

I think the technology is great but we also should recognize apples from oranges. Again, just my 2-cents and thanks for posting that link.

Erik

[johnny means]

Eric, I'll bet the sliders that get high usage, the ones that run all day every day, are not owned our used by the purchasers. The majority of injuries on them are just some anonymous employed schmuck. I've seen pretty much an equal number of injuries on cabinet saws and sliders throughout my career. Though it seems like the nature and circumstances are different.

[John Lankers]

I realized my post was getting way to long so I figured I had to keep it short and I deleted some, sorry.
The report says the main cause of accidents is safety equipment like blade guards removed, small workpieces not properly secured or waste removed from the proximity of the blade without proper care, so unsafe work practices in general.
Those numbers are real but they don't differentiate between jobsite saws, cabinet saws, sliders, hobby shops and commercial shops and they include all imaginable accidents including cuts on sliders.
I'm not even sure if it's possible to find statistics that only show cuts on sliders - so it might be anyones guess, who knows. I do know, since I own the slider I feel a lot safer and I can make cuts safely that I never even would have dreamed of doing on a table saw - incl. SawStop.
This set aside, what about all the other woodworking machines like shapers, jointers, drill presses, band saws and routers - are they any less dangerous?

[Erik Loza]

....Those numbers are real but they don't differentiate between jobsite saws, cabinet saws, sliders, hobby shops and commercial shops and they include all imaginable accidents including cuts on sliders.

This is my issue with using "statistics" to drive marketing, especially when your marketing strategy is (or has historically been...) fear-based marketing: "Buy our product or it's just a matter of time", etc.

I'm all in favor of new safety features but where's the data to support the claim that it's sliders that are causing all these injuries? Personally, I think your top culprits are cabinet-style table saws and handheld circular saws. I can tell you, for example, that vast majority of slider "incidents" I have either personally witnessed or know of, firsthand, and I say "incidents" rather than "accidents", because an injury does not always result from one of these "incidents", involve one of two things: Kickback or having the offcut piece jump off the table, due to the operator attempting to use the rip fence to the right of the sawblade in conjunction with the slider, as some sort of parallel-type cutting fence, which is super-sketchy. Or, leaving the sawblade guard off and having the sawblade catch the edge of the panel and spin it around while the operator is trying to hurry through cuts. Of course, both of those are common sense safety things that can be avoided but in shops, guys are in a hurry. But I don't see guys losing fingers. They may, I just think it's not the issue it is with jobsite saws. Just my 2 cents as always,

Erik

[Peter Aeschliman]

I for one really welcome the change.

Thanks to this forum, I've learned a lot about how the sliding table can be used even to perform a parallel rip cut. The Fritz and Franz jig is brilliant. So if you have a big slider with massive stroke (one big enough that you can use the sliding table for the vast majority of your rip cuts), then I suppose you wouldn't really need a blade brake.

BUT, I will say that from what I understand, it takes a bit of fiddling to get your rip cut set up on a slider (when using the slider rather than the fence).

Whereas, if you use the fence for your parallel rip just like many of us do on our North American style table saws, it's much faster... but much less safe.

So this is a big step forward for convenience in my opinion. I also think that once this trickles down to the smaller high end hobby level sliders (with which users are far more likely to use the rip fence due to the slider's limited stroke), it could be a major game changer.

Look at how much market share SS has stolen from other manufacturers in the US market. Is it hard to believe that the same could happen for these saws?

[Erik Loza]

I'm at the show right now and Griggio actually has a booth here. Well, a US dealer for them. Two regular sliders, not the "safe" one. Spoke at length with the rep. Says it will be at least a year before that slider makes it to the US and did confirm the relationship with Sawstop.

Erik

[David Kumm]

Any idea from the rep how they adapted it could handle larger blades and deal with the additional stress when slamming down and stopping? Dave

[Erik Loza]

Any idea from the rep how they adapted it could handle larger blades and deal with the additional stress when slamming down and stopping? Dave

Dave, there was some reluctance to discuss the exact specifics. Just that is "all was patented in partnership with SS". I did ask...

Erik