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Thread: Close-Up and Personal Look at the NEW Lie-Nielsen PLOW PLANE

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    My eyes are missing something. How is the depth adjusted?

    jtk
    With the bronze adjuster.


    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Fife View Post



  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Sidener View Post
    With the bronze adjuster.
    Oops! My thoughts were on the blade depth adjustment.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  3. #18
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    Maybe the nice photos above aren't convincing enough, but since I have seen the plane and a video of it in use, I honestly can't imagine what Jim and Hilton are talking about. I can tell you that I would switch to this plane in a New York minute, and that would mean having to sell the one I currently own that all of you think is fantastic. Just don't ask me when that will be, because the time continuum in my universe is not the same one as in Warren, Maine. Which screws should they use? Allen, Torx, Robertson, Hex, Imperial, Metric? None of which I can find a driver for when I need one.

  4. #19
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    Till it does come out, and I win a Lotto....
    Guess I'm just stuck with this thing...
    Stanley 39.jpg
    Don't get me wrong, this does work

  5. #20
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    I bought a LN Chisel Plane on eBay that someone had swapped the screw on for a hex screw. I am ordering a proper slotted replacement.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilton Ralphs View Post
    I dunno about this one. Lots of parts look cheaply designed and after thoughts. All this time and Lie-Nielsen still has to copy another design? Come on really? Stanley probably brought out planes at a faster rate without the help of computers and previous designs.

    I still don't know what the obsession is with those silly slotted screws but clearly innovation isn't in the LN dictionary.

    I'll have to wait (more) to see what the final version will be and of course the boutique price to go along with it but I'll reserve proper judgement until then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brady View Post
    Maybe the nice photos above aren't convincing enough, but since I have seen the plane and a video of it in use, I honestly can't imagine what Jim and Hilton are talking about. I can tell you that I would switch to this plane in a New York minute, and that would mean having to sell the one I currently own that all of you think is fantastic. Just don't ask me when that will be, because the time continuum in my universe is not the same one as in Warren, Maine. Which screws should they use? Allen, Torx, Robertson, Hex, Imperial, Metric? None of which I can find a driver for when I need one.
    Nor do I understand what Hilton means by "Lots of parts look cheaply designed and after thoughts."

    We got sidetracked into a conversation on screw driving interface preferences. Perhaps if there were antique drivers with hex drive, Robertson drive, Phillips drive etc. folks could use while reliving the experience of yesteryear we would see different screw driving interfaces on our modern reproductions. All my old planes, saws, spokeshaves and other tools have slot drive screws. Why change now?

    Lie-Nielsen is using modern day manufacturing to produce (reproduce?) a design from the early days of Stanley's product line. It is a beautiful looking tool. It will do a job many people have a need or desire to perform. There are many tools in my shop that will perform any function this 'new' offering is able to undertake. Most of them are capable of tasks of which this one is not capable.

    It is all a matter of taste. Some of us enjoy bright new shiny things on our shelves or nestled in their own special places. Some of us like to see the patina of a long useful life waiting silently for its next challenge on a hunk of lumber.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilton Ralphs View Post
    All this time and Lie-Nielsen still has to copy another design? Come on really?
    Nearly 100% of Lie Nielsen's plane designs are copies. That is not some kind of insightful observation, rather, that is precisely the cornerstone and defining characteristic of their business. LN is in the business of making the best possible versions of old tool designs, while taking advantage of modern materials, methods and metrology. By contrast, Lee Valley & Veritas is in a slightly different business, which is the business of coming up with new-and-improved designs.

    Which approach is better? The answer is that it's better for us AND them to have both approaches, so taht we, the consumers, end-user can be über-fussy, and choose the one that makes something deep within us us say:
    "Mmmm... Zog like tool. Tool good. Fire good... (woman, beer etc...)"

    Case in point:
    Take a look at the staggeringly good Veritas Shooting Plane. IMO it's an improvement over anything that's ever been offered. In "shop-talk-live" terms, I would call it "The all-time best shooting plane of all time". For me, New-and-improved design is preferable.

    By contrast, look at the Veritas plow? It's excellent and versatile tool, but I suspect the the design will fall short of the Millers Falls #43 clone in the role of plow-only. For me, the traditional design is preferable, even if it means I have to use a different tool for T&G, rabbets, mouldings etc.

    For other people it may be different. If someone is of the combination plane mentality, they'll probably prefer a historic Stanley, or even the contemporary Veritas plow. Still, that's a decision that we have. Truly in the realm of first-world 'problems'. Meanwhile, I'll continue to use my well-worn slotting cutter in my router table while I wait for Lie Nielsen to build and validate the manufacturing process for their plow. I'll count on them delaying it as long as they need to to avoid any compromise in execution--another reason why I like their stuff.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilton Ralphs View Post
    I still don't know what the obsession is with those silly slotted screws but clearly innovation isn't in the LN dictionary.
    This again?!!

    You are clearly in the vanishing minority of people who want something other than slotted screws. Keep that in mind.

    Having said that, I appreciate and respect your desire to tweak and improve things without being shackled to (and by) convention. It's a trait common to all innovators. Do yourself, and a favor, and discover Fastenal.com, McMaster-carr etc. and get out and modify your own tools, and let this be the end of it.

    There's a very good reason for using slotted screws versus ANY other type. It's called consistency, convention and/or convenience. If you own any woodworking tools (especially planes), you definitely also have a straight-blade screwdriver right there next to it. That's why you see slotted screws. Period.

    Case in point, today I'm re-manufacturing the knurled brass knob (the depth-set screw) for my Veritas skew-rabbet plane to a accept a chipbreaker screwdriver. This way I can make the depth screw tight enough to prevent slipping, while avoiding the Chris Schwarz method of tearing the screw up with a pair of pliers. I chose the width and depth of the slot to cut by measuring the chip-breaker screwdriver that's already on my bench. If my planes and tools used T-40, Posidriv, or PH3, I would have used that instead.

    Ain't nothin' wrong with driving on the right side of the road; there ain't nothin' wrong with driving on the left, but in any theoretical difference between them is totally dwarfed by the usefulness of it being the same today as it was yesterday.
    Last edited by Karl Fife; 05-31-2015 at 5:28 PM.

  9. #24
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    Karl, while you're milling that slotted knob for the plow (why should we have to do that at $275.?) make another one for the MkII narrow blade head. It's got the same problem.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brady View Post
    milling that slotted knob for the plow (why should we have to do that at $275.?)
    Funny you should say that. At Handworks, I mentioned the skew rabbet plane screw modification to Robin Lee. He said something like "yeah, we thought about doing that originally, but ultimately decided against it because using a screwdriver on a soft brass screw would have made it easy to snap off the head". If I remember correctly, he also said they're going to be modifying the screw somehow to address this. I would guess by using a different material, but I didn't ask. Robin and I talked for a good long time. I have new respect for the difficult of designing good tools. It's amazing how many of my 'good ideas' they'd already thought of, and decided against for reasons I'd never thought of.

    IMO that may be one of the reasons that LN has done so well copying old designs. For every good design idea that you notice, there may be five or more carefully considered ideas that you're totally unaware of.
    Last edited by Karl Fife; 05-31-2015 at 6:29 PM.

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Fife View Post
    This again?!!

    You are clearly in the vanishing minority of people who want something other than slotted screws. Keep that in mind.

    There's a very good reason for using slotted screws versus ANY other type. It's called consistency, convention and/or convenience. If you own any woodworking tools (especially planes), you definitely also have a straight-blade screwdriver right there next to it. That's why you see slotted screws. Period.
    Seems like a credible interpretation of the rationale for hundreds of years of tool design. Doesn't invalidate his desire for something else. I share the desire for a different solution than slotted screws - from the manufacturer. (Despite owning an excellent set of drivers from LV, I never seem to have a slotted driver that's as wide as the slot is long. So I end up marring the screw.) Personally, I have NO desire to modify expensive tools. But they aren't going to change just for a minority like me - for all the reasons cited above. So I deal with it. IMO, it's still a fair grumble here on SMC.

    Fred
    Last edited by Frederick Skelly; 05-31-2015 at 8:55 PM.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
    - Sir Edmund Burke

  12. #27
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    It would be interesting to be part of that process. I saw from your photos and commentary that the plow plane handle is still evolving. The first prototype I saw had more of a clam shell handle. This one is adapted from a saw handle. Neither will appear for sale without more modification, most likely. Cost is certainly a decider for any manufacturer. You notice that the LN sharpening jig is stainless. When LV did their honing guide they undoubtedly opted for cheaper casting where machined stainless would have been a superior, but more costly choice. In my opinion, Lee Valley in more likely to compromise for the sake of cost saving than Lie-Nielsen because they are more retail price sensitive. Their respective plow planes are a good example. Side-by-side, the differences are obvious. Even the name "small plow plane" hints that there may some day be a large plow plane, which is what Lie-Nielsen will eventually release.
    Last edited by Mike Brady; 05-31-2015 at 10:23 PM.

  13. #28
    The standards for slots on screws is so loose that no one screwdriver is going to fit. Gunsmiths get around this by making bits for each screw. On a rifle I like allenheads, for the rest, Robertson. They are over 100 years old now.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Selinger View Post
    The standards for slots on screws is so loose that no one screwdriver is going to fit. Gunsmiths get around this by making bits for each screw. On a rifle I like allenheads, for the rest, Robertson. They are over 100 years old now.
    Thanks Ray. I like Allenheads and Robertsons too. Far better than slots for my fumbly hands.
    Fred
    Last edited by Frederick Skelly; 05-31-2015 at 10:06 PM.

  15. #30
    Same here and all kinds of screws are used in my shop. I don't think those who use non-slotted screws are in the minority; in fact, I'd argue they are in the majority judging from the screws we can find in big box hardware stores. There are pros and cons in all types of screws. If you want to modify a knob on a tool, of course, it is the simplest (or easiest) to cut a slot. I have never found the need to make any modifications to my plow plane and I intend to keep it that way.

    Simon

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