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Thread: Zinsser shellac as a sealer

  1. #1
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    Zinsser shellac as a sealer

    Just got back with the Zinsser Shellac Bullseye--what I had on the shelf was old and didn't dry.

    I have flakes-not motivated to do all that.

    (See--I read in Flexner and Jewitt).

    So, Flexner says that not good to use Polyurethane on Shellac.

    My question is----to seal the wood to decrease blotching, do I use the Zinsser right from the can, or cut with water?

    This is on ambrosia maple. I want to stain fairly dark.

    Will then dye with TransTint water based dye, and spray with lacquer.

    As always, thanks for holding my hand.
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  2. #2
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    You've got the wrong Zinsser product. The one you bought has wax in it. You want Zinsser SealCoat shellac. Says dewaxed right on the front of the can. Polyurethane has trouble bonding to shellac with wax in it, that's why you want the dewaxed SealCoat product.

    With SealCoat shellac you want to cut it about 50% with denatured alcohol to use it as a pre-conditioner to help reduce blotching.

    You either has your process backwards or you are mixing terms. You said you "want to stain fairly dark" and then "will then dye Transtint water based dye". If you really meant to say stain you have your process backwards; you apply dye before you apply stain. But I'm guessing you just said stain when you meant color. If that's correct, then, yes, the sequence is:

    1) Apply SealCoat thinned 50% with DNA
    2) Apply Transtint dye solution
    3) Spray lacquer.

    Make samples until you are satisfied it works as you want.

    John

  3. #3
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    David - you can take an approach that varies from what J10 is telling you, but you will not put it anywhere hear the ditch by following his advice - that is my advice......

    As noted earlier - I have moved to TransFast powder for waterborne dye - does not lift like the TransTint does when I follow with another seal coat via padding cloth.

    But - You can use the TransTint just fine, if you follow it with a sprayed something. Like the lacquer J10 notes, or Zinnser aerosol shellac, or whatever.

    One last bit - kind of off topic - My advice to your mental well being is to use only dewaxed shellac until you have gained more confidence in your finishing. I was in the same spot before - no shame it not knowing - so thsi will keep you from any unplanned problems.

    Zinnser Seal Coat is a very pal dewaxed.
    Zinnser aerosol is the same.

    Other than that, take 15 minutes and mix up some dewaxed from your bags of flakes.........that is what I do. Ends up being roughly the same $$$ per qt. as the Zinsser, but I enjoy doing it, I have a range of colors/products on the shelf [ultra pale, amber, garnet], as well as a range of cuts [ultra pale in 3/4# and 2#].
    When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.

  4. #4
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    Man, I tell you I don't even know the person my wife asked me to make this little table for. The thing is I **enjoy** it right? ha ha ha.

    We all know what happens. They will look @ what we make for about 2-3 seconds and say "that's nice" and that will be it. ha ha ha.

    Anyway, there is no Zinsser SealCoat within 'reasonable' driving distance.....I just got back from taking back the clear shellac stuff.

    You say the spray is the same thing as what John says?

    Can we make the following work:

    DSCN0476.JPG

    they are 5 years old, been wrapped in black plastic in a cool place.

    I'm ready to get out my chemistry set if we can do this.....how long do I have to wait until the wax separates? will cooling it a little accelerate that separation (sorry to disappoint, but I dont' have a centrifuge.)

    The spray is the same thing as what I need?

    Kent-I will read your msg again about my alternatives.......
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  5. #5
    The spray is dewaxed. Confusing I know.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Ragan View Post
    Man, I tell you I don't even know the person my wife asked me to make this little table for. The thing is I **enjoy** it right? ha ha ha.

    We all know what happens. They will look @ what we make for about 2-3 seconds and say "that's nice" and that will be it. ha ha ha.

    Anyway, there is no Zinsser SealCoat within 'reasonable' driving distance.....I just got back from taking back the clear shellac stuff.

    You say the spray is the same thing as what John says?

    Can we make the following work:


    they are 5 years old, been wrapped in black plastic in a cool place.

    I'm ready to get out my chemistry set if we can do this.....how long do I have to wait until the wax separates? will cooling it a little accelerate that separation (sorry to disappoint, but I dont' have a centrifuge.)

    The spray is the same thing as what I need?

    Kent-I will read your msg again about my alternatives.......
    Your flakes are not dewaxed. The 5 year deal is not necessarily a problem, but they are not automatically good to go. If you mix some, you need to let it sit overnight - at a minimum - you will be able to tell when the wax sediment has gone to the bottom. Don't get cute and try to get every last milliliter of dewaxed out of the jar.

    The Zinsser aerosol is a dewaxed shellac.

    I just sent you a PM, in your response to my prior PM.

    Get your stuff organized, get down here, and we will make short work of all of this noise. I promise not to throttle you in the first 30 minutes - best I can do. Of course -with my right shoulder being what it is, I would have to throttle you left-handed, which ain't very damn likely. I would judge that, on the whole, you are reasonably safe.
    When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.

  7. #7
    David, I'd jump on this offer. He's got a method that works very well for him, and the pictures will be worth a thousand of these words.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prashun Patel View Post
    He's got a method that works very well for him.......
    Perfect, Prashun - you and I have an Armistice and don't have to worry about this topic.

    I will, however, be keeping my eye on you................

    Just friendly rejoinder - never had a disagreement, just a different spin.
    When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.

  9. #9
    Wasn't disagreeing Kent. Didn't mean to sound like that. I know you've had great success with a particular order, and if I had had someone like you to tutor me when I was starting, I would have saved myself a LOT of extra work, and probably wouldn't continue to second guess myself on each project.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prashun Patel View Post
    Wasn't disagreeing Kent. Didn't mean to sound like that. I know you've had great success with a particular order, and if I had had someone like you to tutor me when I was starting, I would have saved myself a LOT of extra work, and probably wouldn't continue to second guess myself on each project.
    I did not misunderstand you, Sir - just having some fun with you. I am really not that accomplished, outside the things I have mistaked my way into learning, and I have those pretty firmly bolted down. They take care of everything I need to do/know, but they did not come cheap - as I am sure you understand.

    Until I make the trek north to the J10 Spray Finishing Tutorial & Art Festival sometime after the shoulder thingie.............then I expect to become incompetent at an entirely new level of productivity..........I hope to be able to make bigger mistakes much faster.............
    When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.

  11. #11
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    All the folks who have been trying to help me with this will be relieved that I am taking Kent up on his gracious offer to help me out Sat AM.

    I'll let you all know what happens down @ the Bathurst Estate.

    Thanks
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  12. #12
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    David --

    Do. Not. Forget. The Ranger IPA.

    Cold-cold. No finishing schedule was ever successful with warm beer. Guaranteed. I have tried and failed on this key point.
    When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kent A Bathurst View Post
    I did not misunderstand you, Sir - just having some fun with you. I am really not that accomplished, outside the things I have mistaked my way into learning, and I have those pretty firmly bolted down. They take care of everything I need to do/know, but they did not come cheap - as I am sure you understand.

    Until I make the trek north to the J10 Spray Finishing Tutorial & Art Festival sometime after the shoulder thingie.............then I expect to become incompetent at an entirely new level of productivity..........I hope to be able to make bigger mistakes much faster.............
    Good to hear you haven't forgotten about my Spray Finishing Tutorial offer. Your shoulder should be healed up well enough in August, just in time for the Lewiston Art Festival
    http://www.artcouncil.org/events/artfestival.php or Jazz Festival http://www.lewistonjazz.com/. Oops, I'll be gone during the Jazz Festival, so plan on early August or late September. It's beautiful here until November. After that you'll be staying all Winter until the snow finally melts sometime about now. There are still snow banks down in the city where they piled it up 30 or 40 feet high last November. Anyway, I'm not a pro finisher by any means, but I've spent a bunch of time learning how to apply several finishes to give a very good off the gun result. The people I sell to seem to think it's good. And my new deck should be done enough to sit out on and enjoy some of that New Belgian IPA you're bringing. You are bringing it, right?

    John

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kent A Bathurst View Post
    David --

    Do. Not. Forget. The Ranger IPA.

    Cold-cold. No finishing schedule was ever successful with warm beer. Guaranteed. I have tried and failed on this key point.
    I have your beer located. and, on the grocery list for the am.

    Further, am mildly put out that you accuse me of possibly forgetting your beer.

    Indeed, would you turn me out if I did not have said beer in a cooler, chilled @ steady state, and not at all agitated, especially considering it is being imported from Cumming?

    For such a slight on my character you must suffer through an ugly sight now.....

    DSCN0482.JPG

    Hey, you said--go ahead and dissolve that shellac. Which part of the bug or tree is that in there?

    So-overnight this mud is supposed to settle?

    its past my bedtime.....
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    You've got the wrong Zinsser product. The one you bought has wax in it. You want Zinsser SealCoat shellac. Says dewaxed right on the front of the can. Polyurethane has trouble bonding to shellac with wax in it, that's why you want the dewaxed SealCoat product.

    With SealCoat shellac you want to cut it about 50% with denatured alcohol to use it as a pre-conditioner to help reduce blotching.

    You either has your process backwards or you are mixing terms. You said you "want to stain fairly dark" and then "will then dye Transtint water based dye". If you really meant to say stain you have your process backwards; you apply dye before you apply stain. But I'm guessing you just said stain when you meant color. If that's correct, then, yes, the sequence is:

    1) Apply SealCoat thinned 50% with DNA
    2) Apply Transtint dye solution
    3) Spray lacquer.

    Make samples until you are satisfied it works as you want.

    John
    I had a chest of drawers which had spar varnish on it. I used standard waxed shellac, then NC lacquer, and all my finish started to flake off. It was an awful loss of time and profit. I will *never* use anything other than Sealcoat Dewaxed shellac, ever, ever again. Not even if I have a deadline and what I have might work... never again. never.

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