Starrett adjustable square, or who... ?

[Jim Dunn]

Mitutoyo makes a pretty nice square set as well. Not quite a Starrett but very nice tools none the less. Had mine 20+ years and no problems at all.

Jim

[Mike Weaver]

Hmm - I know the Lee Valley's price for a 4 piece standard combination set is pretty nice at $142... is the hardened version an important consideration?

I thought the cast iron version would be fine. Or is it simply because the hardened version is more resistant to abrasives, or it can better sustain an accidental drop?

I noticed the referenced MSC Industrial Supply site has the hardened versions with the reversible protractor head for $187. That's with the 4R graduations - 16R seems to be overkill. That seems to be a pretty good price...

Which brings me to another point - is the reversible protractor actually useful? Opinions?

Marc,
I'm afraid I'm not an expert on these things... so keep that in mind.

I don't think even a hardened version will survive a drop to a concrete floor. The hardened version should avoid nicks, etc, on the blade during normal use and the occasional bump against other tools on your bench though.

I haven't used my reversible protractor head yet, but i think it'll come in handy in the long run. (Stealth gloat - I picked up a complete set at a flea market a couple years ago for $35 and can't detect anything wrong when checked against my Mitutoyu engineer's square).

If you want to save a few $$, you could try Patrick Leach (or one of the other fine antique tool dealers) - they often run across these things and I would trust that one from them would be accurate (especially if you specifically ask to have it checked?). Anyway, just a thought.

Cheers,
-Mike

[Hoa Dinh]

I just bought a new Mitutoyo 6" (actually 4" X 7") engineers square for about $19 delivered from eBay. The seller still has some more. Search eBay for item #7509884850.

The same seller has the 10 1/2" version for about $25, item #7509875777. If you buy both, the total is $40. I bought only the small version because I just bought a 12" Mitutoyo comb. square for $29 delivered.

[Richard Niemiec]

Lufkin - I have a really nice 6" Lufkin combination square which is likely from the early '50s and is dead on square (checked with a Starrett 12") and it is the most used measuring tool in my apron pocket. The older Lufkins are well made; quality deteriorated in the late 60's into the 70's for some reason; I see a lot of lesser grade Lufkin measuring tools out there at the fleas and garage sales which are no better than the Home Depot or Lowes consumer grade.

[Adam Cherubini]

I have a couple thoughts I hope will help:
1) I think it's a good idea to own and preserve master squares. Starrett #20 line are master squares, square to .0001/6". Some engineer's squares advertise good to .001/1". That's not very good at all. Keep your master squares clean and oiled (or coated with vaseline) until needed to check your everyday squares.

2) For woodwork, I like the Starrett double squares. They are accurate enough as try squares and can function as gages in different ways (checking the depth of a dado say). The trick with these is the sliding joint is susceptible to crud which severly limits the accuracy of the square. Keeping these things clean in a wood shop isn't easy. Theyare also susceptible to wear. I bought several of these on fleabay and all were out of square slightly even after a good cleaning.

3) The accuracy of combination squares with long blades is hampered by the short length of the handle/stock. In woodworking, dust and inconsistencies in surface finish under the handle can have a huge effect on the angle of the blade. In my mind, I wonder how much I'd be willing to pay for sub .001" accuracy when that probably won't translate to the work (or matter).

What I would prefer for woodwork is a try square with a longer handle like Starrett's Builder's Companion. But these are crazy money. What I currently use is a large wooden square of my own making. It can be matched to a master square. Mine stays pretty close. But the tricks to using it include paying attention to the reference face, cleanliness of the stock (handle) and flipping it for square across wide stock. The advantage of a wooden square for me is the feel of it in my hand and against the work and the way my striking knife runs across it's thick blade. I don't like the feeling of the knife cutting the square. In my case, the low angle of the knife is entirely beneath the thickness of the square's blade.

All said, my advice is to get second hand masters (if you buy more than one you can check them against each other). Buy new LV or Starrett double squares. And pick up used Starrett combination squares. 18 and 24" blades are available second hand, sometimes as new old stock for deep discounts. But know that none of these accurate tools directly translate to accurate work. That takes experience and good technique.

A couple more tips learned the hard way:
1) Pretty sure all Starrett double squares have cast heads. As these can see tons of wear, second hand squares may be better left to someone willing to risk it. Only the H33 combination heads are drop forged. As second hand tools, the hardened heads hold some assurance that they haven't worn too terribly much.
2) There are at least 4 different sizes of combination squares that I know of. The model most popular with woodworkers is the C33/H33 and features interchangeable 12/18/24" blades. But there is a larger size that might be good to have. It takes the same size blades as the 12/24" model, but has a significantly larger head. The two smaller sizes I believe take 2 different blades. I think the smallest model can share blades with the 4" double square. The next size up has a 6" blade, (3/4" wide) but this is different from the blade in the 6" double square (#13C).
3) The different blades for the different combination squares are also different in thickness. It is possible to buy replacement blade from other companies (like SPI which I believe is a Swiss front for Chinese manufacturerd tools- not necessarily a bad thing) but make careful note of their thickness. I've not found this approach to be a particularly good deal.

[Jacob Reverb]

I *really* like my Starrett squares (and other instruments).

Take a look at Amazon for some good prices. I would buy new...not worth the risk buying used tools of this type, IMHO.

Buy once and they'll last you all your life (just don't let anyone open paint cans with the rule blade!)

I'd highly recommend the "satin chrome" finish on the rule...very easy to read.

Starrett also makes a very nice 6" rule in satin chrome (C604RE-6) graduated in 1/8", 1/16", 1/32" and 1/64" which also has markings on the end that are real useful for setting router bit depth on a router table.

[Bob Lang]

Adam, what kind of crud are you talking about? I've used Starrett squares for nearly forty years and have yet to experience any crud build up, and I am a complete slob in the shop. Keep your Starretts away from the mutton tallow and hot hide glue and you'll be fine. Worst-case scenario is a quick clean and wipe dry with 3-in-1 oil or WD40.

One of the great things about Starrett squares is that they are easily repairable, Starrett has the parts as well as replacement rules. The only part that really wears is the threaded part that slides in the blade groove, and the shape of the business end lets it see a lot of wear and still fit. My grandfather bought his in the 1910s, used them daily as a tool and die maker and they were just fine when he retired in the 1960s. If you have one that is out of square, it's a simple matter to bring it back by judiciously filing one of the little nubs inside the head that the blade rides on. For a good value in a used one (or a new one for that matter) avoid the protractor or centering head. You won't miss them. Likewise with a missing scribe or a broken vial for the level. Brown and Sharpe vintage models are just as good functionally as the Starretts, and often can be found for significantly less used simply because they never get mentioned by the print and online woodworking gurus.

Bob Lang

[lowell holmes]

Wow, Marc, you bought out some of the heavy weights.

What I like about my Starrett combination square is that it's square. That may sound dumb, but other squares I've used aren't

Mine was a Christmas gift from SWMBO 7 0r 8 years back. Th $65.00 she paid for it doesn't seem like much now.

[Jim Stewart]

I use the starrett 4-inch and 12-inch adjustable squares. The 12 works well for squaring the inside of inside of furniture and layout. The ability to adjust is important. The 4-inch is small enough to get into places, plus it works well for marking the 90's on dovetails. You will use these devices often. Jim

[Shawn Pixley]

Lufkin made very good tools. I don't know anything from their current line as I have my grandfather's. I bought a 4" square a couple of years ago. I tested it against the Starrett in the case. It was spot on. The others in the same line weren't. I presumed that the Starrett was accurate.

[Adam Cherubini]

Adam, what kind of crud are you talking about?

Real funny Bob.

The cross section of a Starrett combination or double square is shaped like a W. The blade rides on the flattened center hump. Oil attracts dirt and other contaminants. Drying oils, often used by woodworkers and machinists alike, can form a sludge in the V grooves at the base of the W. The Vs fills up, stuff gets under the blade during adjustment. The length of the contact in the stock is such that wear or dust can both have a significant and noticeable effect at the tip of the blade. No theory. Seen it. Cleaned it!

Adam

[george wilson]

personally,I always use solid squares,but as a machinist(also),I need higher accuracy than any adjustable square has. They get worn where they slide. Chris Vesper makes very nice squares and I have several of his.

[Derek Cohen]

I totally agree, George. But keep in mind that Chris is a good friend of mine. Still, if you can afford one of teh Vesper square, then you will never regret it. I would HIGHLY recommend the 4" square. It has (as with his others) a built-in tab that allows one to balance the square on the side of a board.



Regards from a wintery Cape Town at present.

Derek

[Adam Cherubini]

I have a pair of these as well. Note the accuracy. That's .00012" overall. Pretty darned tight. I think were you to ask Chris, he would say that the wood is an advantage over solid metal squares in that it insulates the heat from your hands from effecting the square!!! Machinists I know don't really handle their master squares for this reason. Modern micrometers have similar features for the same reason.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I once saw a good price on a used solid engineers square type square. It was the biggest I've seen. The blade was somewhere around 16 to 24 inches if I remember. Weighed a ton! If I remember right it was from one of the reputable old manufacturers.

I have no idea why I would have needed it or if it was still square, but I wanted it. Unfortunately I was on my bike with a load from the hardware store, and didn't really have anywhere to tether that heavy steel thing, and I didn't have any more money on me. It wasn't there when I went back It was neat seeing one so large, never seen one so huge.

Same shop had a giant wrench, several feet long - not just for of leverage, the end was big enough for a huge nut (can't remember how big) just looked like a giant size version of a regular wrench. Can't imagine what it was for - either ship/bridge work or maybe a big display model?

I like the solid squares with a little notch - makes gauging over some fluff or flash on the corner easier.