Got Countermax to help cope....now I want the Aigner fence plates....$$$$!!!!

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, I will caution you about the Countermax though. When coping short pieces, go slower, especially if cutters aren't sharp, sharp. The forces involved can overcome that powerful spring and let that little piece start to force feed into the machine! DAMHIKT.

Do you think PSA sand paper on the leading edge of the backer could help? Or maybe thats just enough of a shim to cause some blow out? Hope I haven't made a mistake here?

[Peter Quinn]

Martin stuff ain't cheap. You need to be wealthy if your buying for a hobby shop, but if this is your business, and life, it is easy,in my opinion, to justify it on a cost basis when you see how fast it is compared to all manual machines with no measuring systems. You just can't wrap your head around the time savings and ease of setup until you try it. .

I've had this conversation with more than one shop owner for whom I've worked, its a hard sell to say the least. I look at it on a cost basis. Whats the payment? Say you go all in and buy the system for $40K, finance it over 5 years, thats close to $500/month, which is a paycheck for a mid level employee. One guy I worked for flat out said he'd rather employee more local guys in our town and less German machinists. Why spend on tools when I can pay people? Its a complicated equation thats easy to get "instinctive" and emotional about, slightly harder to get empirical and compare apples to apples. I've yet to hear a story about a shop that went martin and regretted it. I spent all last summer on a large job making lots of doors and panels, but the shop was running multiple jobs basically on that one shaper, and I had to break down and set up for the small profile maybe 40 times? If they gave me 4 more standard shapers they would need to have bought more space to put them in, real estate has a real cost here, so thats a factor too. There is a digital height gauge on the old basic shaper, I labeled all the bushings for repeatability, clamped blocks to the back of the table and made gauge blocks to speed up set up time, it was still killing me. I thinking, when you are charging $70/hour shop rate, its not long until you've paid the note on the martin or other Class series shaper. If you are an owner/operator who wants to increase production, it might actually be a simpler equation....machine or employee. Employees are a pain, an unknown, and cost more than they add sometimes. Machines are an extension of the human capitol you already have, much more predictable, and don't require health insurance, comp, vacation schedules, emergency rooms, etc.

The other hard sell is specialization. Seems like you don't want to turn a $40K machine loose on a shop full of untrained guys, that could get expensive. Makes sense to have a specialized trained operator? Which requires lots of organization, timing, planning, and fairly good communication. Many shops have none of this. Most places I've worked with multiple employees still treat each one like an independent sub. A job hits the floor and they give it to one guy or break it into major components. You do the kitchen, I'll do the pantry, the other guy will do the library...etc. So you have three guys on the same trajectory independently, all building boxes, all making frames, all making doors, all doing layouts. And you have lines at the machines. The guys on the floor are smart enough to stagger there production, I'll make my boxes first, you make your doors first, etc. I find this approach baffling and limiting. I'd like to have one guy make all the doors, one or two guys together do all the layout and "run" that part of the job, have a box maker, a FF maker, etc. Cross train to avoid stagnation like the big factories, but don't pretend a commercial shop is some kind of bespoke furniture shack out in the woods where a craftsman with some hand planes hand scrapes boards all day.

So how do you take that leap and spend that kind of money on a given day. Given the cyclical nature of this business most shop owners around here are very fiscally conservative. Many of the "trick" shops in the area know to have all the cool toys when completely out of business or were severely diminished over the last 8 years, some have some back, some had some great bankruptcy sales. How to take that leap....or encourage it from the back seat?

[Max Neu]

Peter,
I typically choose machine over man, costs less per month, plus the machine will be paid for after a few years.Unlike a machine, an employee is just going to keep asking for more money as time goes on, plus once an employee starts gaining knowledge and becomes useful, they use that as leverage for raises.I try not to have employees too important that I can't afford to lose.The machines aren't going anywhere.

[Joe Calhoon]

Peter, there are no easy answers to what you are asking. Most of this technology comes from Europe. I have visited many European shops large and small. Compared to here most are well equipped even the small operations doing restoration work. As one owner of a historic window making shop said -“There is Ligna, but this is reality” He had a shop full of 20 to 30 year old German iron and also a couple new CNC machines.
The reason the technology is more successful for the Europeans is the school system for woodworking. When you visit their schools it is overwhelming. The most modern technology along with hand tool use and teaching the material from when the tree seeds are planted. They also put a lot of time in on the latest CAD and design programs. The knowledge these students have when entering the workforce is impressive.

Here, some shops are successful with the technology using careful planning and in house training. But for most it is a blueprint for disaster. I think it works best in small 2 to 5 man shops where the owner has a lot of hands on and control. I have seen a lot of large operations automate with the idea this will eliminate the need for skilled employees. That never works and always ends in bankruptcy.

Another challenge is bringing new technology into well-established operations that have old world skilled craftsmen. This has to be done very carefully and with a lot of education. Otherwise they will reject the technology and work against the new system.

[Max Neu]

Another point to help make a case for a new Martin shaper is the resale value of the Martins.Lets say after 5 years you decide to down size, you can sell the Martin and get alot of your money back. With an employee, you will be lucky to get a handshake.

[J.R. Rutter]

Peter,
there is another fence similar to the Aigner that is less money. I think it is made in Italy. Just cannot get the brain to bring up the name. It is not near as good and does not adopt to any other accessories. The only thing better is the fingers slide and can be locked instead of swinging. This way you can make a zero clearance fence when taking the entire edge of a piece. Not a good description, I will try to dig up the info.

I think I have that fence: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...per-fence-find

Have never mounted it, saving it for my retirement shop.

[J.R. Rutter]

I was looking at the SCM version @ about $14k with the motorized hood/spindle and still may buy one. Eyes are getting old and it would be a huge help to only have to set up a cutter once. I have to recuperate from building my house for cash, but maybe in a year. I like the Martin for sure but I don't have enough of the kind of work that would pay for it here.

I have Martin dreams where I winn the lottery and have a teal colored shop.........

The SCM is a decent runner-up. Unfortunately, they don't pop up used very often. Easy to program and use. For $14,000 a used T130 Class with 5 quick change spindles and programmable fence / height is a possibility.

[Larry Edgerton]

I forgot about that one JR. I like that setup. Even if your fences are offset you can still run the fence in to the center of the spindle on each side above the cutter and then slide them across when your fences are on one plane. The manufacturers site does not have very good pictures that I could find.