Considering my first laser

[Bert Kemp]

Granted Scott but we don't know what Dave wants to do , we know he wants to engrave but how fast does he need to go how detailed and precise does he have to be. He said he's on a tight budget, so were just giving him more options. Maybe he should get a demo on a Rabbit or other Chinese machine and see if it will do what he wants to do. I see many many people use the Mayan Calendar as a good test of how a machine will do on detailed work. MY Chinese machine will do that very nicely, sure maybe not as fast as a western machine but it does a pretty good job with it.

[david minnery]

I have a few reasons for getting an American made laser.
First, I'll explain my current needs. I need to brand my product with my logo, etc. I'll also be offering custom lettering like names, etc. Planning for the future, I'd like to be able to cut 1/4" hardwood. My lettering will be simple sans serif fonts, I don't need to reproduce the mayan calendar! However, I do want something beyond my current needs so I can go into it.

Build quality, software and customer service are very important. I would say they are all about equal in my book. From what I've read, it seems like the 3 top american/austrian brands (epilog, uls, trotec) are pretty reliable in the three aforementioned categories.
I have a small growing business and I can't afford to have a machine that is unreliable or gives me ulcers. I had that experience with my first cnc and I vowed I would not repeat that mistake again. Being a small American business owner, I also want to support other American businesses if I can.

I really want something reliable and that will hold it's value when I want to sell and upgrade. I suppose I have a knee jerk reaction to a chinese made machine, based on experience. Perhaps a Rabbit may work for me, I'll investigate. Although, I get a deja-vu feeling which led me down the path to cut corners and get my first cnc which was a nightmare.

I appreciate this discussion, it's great -keep it coming!
Any thoughts on the various software provided for these lasers?

[Mike Null]

I agree with those who suggest moving to a higher powered unit. I am also among those who feel very strongly that one machine operations can't afford to buy Chinese. Just read the posts on the forum. Everybody has issues that cause them down time.

[Scott Shepherd]

All you have to do is search the front page of the forum any day of the week. Count the number of issues with each machine and you'll have a realistic snapshot of what to expect.

[Isaac Clarke]

I'm on the other side of the fence with this one. Chinese machines are nowhere near as bad as they used to be. I have a machine that is 4 years old and worked 12 hours a day, 6 days a week and only had to change the tube once and a stepper motor once. This was my main machine until I completed my self build recently and it still runs well. Aslo, replacing the tube is a hell of a lot cheaper.

Here is an example of what I made recently on it:
IMG_6310.JPG

Maybe request demos, or find some one local to try one out.


-I

[Scott Shepherd]

That's the point Issac, you could have worked 5 hours a day and accomplished the same amount. So how much did you really save (or lose)?

[Jerome Stanek]

That's the point Issac, you could have worked 5 hours a day and accomplished the same amount. So how much did you really save (or lose)?

I only do cut outs with mine are you telling me that I could cut my time in half by getting a Trotec over my LG laser

[Scott Shepherd]

I only do cut outs with mine are you telling me that I could cut my time in half by getting a Trotec over my LG laser

Of course not, but that's the type of statements people are making. Just broad, general statements that aren't helpful. If you were vector cutting 14" squares, then no, it wouldn't save you 1/2 the time, if you were cutting 1" x 1" pieces, a table full at a time, then yes, it would be faster. Maybe 10% faster. Even at 10%, that adds to to real money.

I'm not suggesting Chinese machines don't have a place in the market at all. But the implication that Chinese machines are "just as good" and a "greater value" is not true. All things are relative to the application.

It's also odd how people post thread after thread, showing their machine problems and spending days and days trying to get their machines back up and running, only to have them show up a week later and say how great their machine is and recommend everyone buy one because they are so great.

When our machines go down, we're losing at least $90 per hour, often into the $300-400 per hour mark. For that reason, we can't have a machine down for days, or be tweaking anti-freeze ratios or trying to stop algae growth. When those things are happening, while it might be fun to tinker with, it's costing us lost revenue.

[Mike Null]

I'll second that. My machine is in its 8th year and I've had 5 days of total down time--that was the time it took to send out my tube for remanufacture and get it back. I installed my tube in 15 minutes and it was in perfect adjustment.

My first machine was a ULS 25 watt which was equally dependable--not as fast and not as powerful but still very good.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I probably have more Chinese machines than anybody here and own western lasers as well.

If the budget allows...buy western made, If you want to save some bucks and start out slowly then Chinese from a US supplier will be good (although I should clarify and say if you want a US supplier in my opinion there is only one sensible option and that's RabbitLaserUSA), seeing how I spend much of my spare time helping people who are having problems with imported machines I'd seriously recommend AGAINST that, direct factory support is dire at best and non existent at worst.

If you have a lot of time in working with lasers then the various Chinese problems don't matter much but if you aren't happy tinkering or putting up with the odd problem then a western machine will give you far less grey hairs.

Western will cost you less trouble
Chinese will cost you less dollars

cheers

Dave

[Ross Moshinsky]

First point I'd like to make is Trotec is an Austrian company, not a US company. So if you want to support a US company, Trotec shouldn't be on the list. They are essentially no different than Rabbit in Ohio. US company selling foreign goods.

I'm not going to once again discuss the Chinese vs Western machines. It's been discussed a lot. It doesn't need to be discussed any further really.

The reality is, a 30W laser is not enough power if you want to work with wood. I did a bamboo cutting board the other day on my 30w. Run time was ~20 minutes. This was a graphic about 10-12" and 6-8" high. I probably could have tweaked the settings a little bit and maybe lowered the DPI a bit (I ran at 600dpi to get a bit more contrast). So if I did cutting boards all day long for 8 hours, I could get 24 done per day. Assuming $30 to engrave them, that's $720 a day or $90/hr. With 50W and assumption of running time dropping to let's say 15 minutes, you can do 32 boards in the same 8 hour day. Charging the same $30 per board, you're looking at $960 a day or $120/hr. Of course this is an assumption of having an endless supply of orders. If you only have 10 cutting boards to do all day, machine efficiency becomes less important to some degree.

If I were in your position, I'd first wait a few weeks until the ARA show in Vegas. That's the time to buy. Get show pricing. I'm pretty sure the Trotec Speedy 100 w/ a 50W tube is what they are pushing when it comes to the Speedy 100. You'll "save" a few grand doing that.

[Bert Kemp]

I hate the fact you can't go to any of the big 3 and get an exact price online. Oh they say well if you have this or that and we add this or that then the cost is this or that but you have to call to get pricing they ask you a zillion questions. You want a rabbit, a boss, a auto tech go to their website all machines features and add on's are there with price's right up front.

[Jerome Stanek]

I hate the fact you can't go to any of the big 3 and get an exact price online. Oh they say well if you have this or that and we add this or that then the cost is this or that but you have to call to get pricing they ask you a zillion questions. You want a rabbit, a boss, a auto tech go to their website all machines features and add on's are there with price's right up front.

It's the old car dealer tactic they give you a price and hope you think it is the best price no comparing unless you go some where else and start all over. It's like buy from me I'm cheaper than X or Y

[Bill George]

A few weeks ago eBay had two listings for almost new Epilog machines one 50 and the other 60 watts. Listing price was around $15K, of course that is with no warranty. I just checked now there are 3 listed.

[Ross Moshinsky]

$15k is too much for a used 50 or 60W laser. You must assume the tube is bad or going bad and something else is one its way out as well. That's not just for Epilog lasers but all brands. So your assumed expense within 2 years is not $15k but closer to $17-18k. That's a marginal savings over buying new.