Grizzly vs. Busybee tools

[rudy de haas]

Rick:

Yes CSA certification is an important issue. The saw is CSA certificated, the jointer/planer "only" UL certified. However, as I understand it:

1 - if a product has significant US made components or was US assembled then UL certification is legally accepted as equivelent to CSA certification;

2 - if a product is first imported into the US, earns a US UL label, and then is re-exported to Canada the law as written requires acceptance of the UL label as CSA equivelent provided that the standards are substantially the same and the uses to which the product is put are substantially the same.

however.. this is Canada and the golden rule in litigation here is that whoever has the most money wins - so if you have a fire, your insurer tries to weasel out of paying on the grounds that you used non CSA certified gear, and there are reasonable grounds for thinking that the gear in question caused the fire, you're probably toast if you don't have enough money, and/or connections, to make your threat to drag them into federal court seem credible.

[Simon MacGowen]

Between a local supplier and one involving heavy machines and shipping across the border (from the US into Canada or vice versa), for me, it's a no brainer: I will pick the local store, unless the customer service of the local option is poor. In that case, I would choose other brands and suppliers since customer service is important for me. If you are buying a cordless drill package or a router, it is fine to take risks, but for tablesaws, jointers, etc., I will do my homework (e.g. woodworking magazine reviews, forum reviews, etc.) and focus on the quality machines.

Most of the power machines are made in China or Taiwan, regardless of their brands (even top quality and reputed SawStop tablesaws are imported from Taiwan but their quality is second to none, not to mention its safety uniqueness) -- Festools of course are from Germany but may not have the machines you want. Ridgid jointers from Home Depot have earned consistently excellent reviews from customers and I think it's from China. The newer Ridgid tablesaws, I heard, do not seem to be as good as the old ones sold five years ago or so.

You get what you pay for is largely true for woodworking machines if you do your homework.

Simon

[rudy de haas]

Thanks, everyone

I've gone ahead and ordered both a G0675 jointer/planer and a smaller saw - the G0715P. They tell me they're out of stock on the
jointer until about mid August, so I'll file something here in September on what happened with unpacking etc.

In the end the convincing argument for me was that these tools will get very little usage and selling them when I'm done with them will be much easier
if they are branded "Grizzly" than "craftex".

[Wade Lippman]

however.. this is Canada and the golden rule in litigation here is that whoever has the most money wins - so if you have a fire, your insurer tries to weasel out of paying on the grounds that you used non CSA certified gear, and there are reasonable grounds for thinking that the gear in question caused the fire, you're probably toast if you don't have enough money, and/or connections, to make your threat to drag them into federal court seem credible.

I challenge you to find a single example where this has happened. They would certainly have to show that your machine caused the fire. (can you find a single example of that, from a properly maintained machine?) They would then have to show that it didn't meet CSA, and that deficiency was responsible for the fire. And finally they would have to show that you were negligent in not using a CSA machine.

It is probably not something you should consider in choosing machines.

[mreza Salav]

Between BB and Grizzly (which seem identical to me) I'd pick the BB, local, longer warranty, no cross-border hassle, no CSA worries (and no UL is not a replacement for CSA), etc.

[Rick Fisher]

UL is not an alternative to CSA .. that is a myth .. The USA has much lower electrical safety standards than Canada. ( although probably more reasonable ) ..

(UL)c is acceptable in Canada. UL is not. Its not a grey area, its not vague.. its simply illegal and can cost you a bundle.. I have been busted and was given 72 hours to dispose or they threatened to cut off hydro.. no joke.

I would call the local electrical inspector prior to assuming you know the drill.. Money and "oh I thought" means nothing.

Its actually quite a big deal ... Festool just went through a pretty big fiasco with vacuum's in
Canada, they chose to pay to replace them all with new ones.

If your caught with non-csa machinery, you can pay a private inspector to inspect a machine .. It starts at about $200 and the machine has to actually pass. It can cost more than the machine is worth on cheaper Asian machinery..

The worst thing about non-csa machinery is that if you sell the tool .. or even give it away .. and the person has a shop fire.. even if they cannot prove it was that particular machine.. your liable.. You placed unsafe electrical machinery in their shop.. The legal assumption in Canada is that the unsafe machine could have caused the fire...

[Rick Potter]

Just curious,

What differences would there be between a US/UL Grizzly saw, and a Canadian/CSA Busy Bee saw, assuming they were the same saw, different labels?

Rick Potter

[rudy de haas]

The saw is CSA certified - and there isn't any except in terms of price.

[rudy de haas]

Law vs reality

The law on this is, I think, quite clear - but so is reality. The law accepts the American standard, but the reality is that I don't have the money to fight
the CSA - and am not dumb enough to try.

[Steve Bansee]

Rudy,
The fees are not that bad. I'm in Winnipeg, and this month I got a G0513X2 bandsaw from Grizzly.
This is what I got charged.
From Grizzly: $1050 US for the Bandsaw, plus $149 US Shipping, plus $34 US for liftgate service, minus $28 (discount for brokerage fee).
When the saw arrived in Canada, UPS Freight called and I paid the taxes. $155 CDN. No other fees where paid on delivery.

Steve

[Wade Lippman]

(UL)c is acceptable in Canada. UL is not. Its not a grey area, its not vague.. its simply illegal and can cost you a bundle.. I have been busted and was given 72 hours to dispose or they threatened to cut off hydro.. no joke.

I am going to make a wild guess and say you were using the machine commercially. I doubt the CSA police swoop in to nail individuals.

The worst thing about non-csa machinery is that if you sell the tool .. or even give it away .. and the person has a shop fire.. even if they cannot prove it was that particular machine.. your liable.. You placed unsafe electrical machinery in their shop.. The legal assumption in Canada is that the unsafe machine could have caused the fire...

Can you document that? Didn't think so.

[Rick Fisher]

Wade.. why would you ask a question and then answer it ... doh ..

Certification or approval mark required for electrical equipment

21

(1) Subject to subsections (3) and (4), a person must not use electrical equipment in British Columbia, or offer for sale, sell, display or otherwise dispose of electrical equipment for use in British Columbia, unless the electrical equipment displays a label or mark as follows:
(a) a certification mark;
(b) a label or mark of a certification agency that is acceptable to the appropriate provincial safety manager to certify electrical equipment for a specific installation;
(c) an approval mark issued under section 10 of the Act;
(d) in the case of used manufactured homes, used factory-built structures and used recreational vehicles, a label supplied by the appropriate provincial safety manager.
(2) An approval mark under subsection (1) (c) signifies compliance with requirements in respect of fire and electrical shock hazards only.
(3) Electrical equipment that does not require approval under the B.C. Electrical Code does not require a label or mark.
(4) Electrical equipment that has not been approved under subsection (1) may
(a) be displayed for not more than 14 days if the regulatory authority gives written permission to do so, or
(b) be used by a utility in its capacity as a utility if a professional engineer has certified that the use of the equipment is safe.
[am. B.C. Reg. 327/2005, Sch. 1, s. 6.]


CSA is not the issue.. (UL)c .. Intertek testing, PQ .. BC Hydro Authority and a whole bunch more tags are legal.. UL alone is not legal in Canada.

CSA is the biggest testing agency, and actually licenses factories outside of Canada to label their products CSA approved. They do regular inspections on the factory and the product ..

A good example of a CSA rule is a red safety stop button.. CSA would require a twist lock.. A red button that would have to be manually unset.. UL alone does not .. A typical phase converter will cost more if built to CSA standards because CSA has different tolerances for the use of aluminium for conducting electricity ... Another example would be having the wiring diagram attached to the machine.. CSA would often require this .. its usually inside the cap on the starter...

A testing agency can be hired to approve anything ... but they won't actually pass it unless it meets code.. and it may not..

[Rick Fisher]

Here is more on electrical safety liability in Canada ..

LEGAL REQUIREMENTS FOR PRODUCT APPROVAL

By law, all electrical products must be certified or field evaluated to electrical safety standards before they can be used or sold in Canada. An ESAFE approval meets the requirements of Rule 2-024 – Ontario Electrical Safety Code, and the requirements of all other jurisdictions in Canada.


Electrical equipment is deemed to be approved if it has been approved according to the process set out in section 2 of Ontario Regulation 438/07.
The Electrical Safety Authority (ESA) recognizes certification bodies and field evaluation agencies accredited by the Standards Council of Canada to certify or evaluate electrical products or devices. Only equipment bearing a recognized mark or label is deemed to be approved.
Failure to comply with these Rules or the Regulation is an offence and upon conviction, a person or director/officer of a corporation could be found liable to a fine of up to $50,000 and/or imprisonment of not more than one year. A corporation may be found liable to a fine up to $1,000,000.
ESA also has the authority to order products be quarantined, seized or forfeited to the Crown for disposal.


To gain product approval, field evaluation is a legally acceptable solution for:

• Custom-built equipment for special applications;
• Equipment manufactured on a non-repetitive basis;
• Equipment sold in quantities of less than 500 on a national basis, per model, per year, per inspection body (note: maximum quantity varies by jurisdiction. Please contact us. for the limit in your area);
• Equipment not obtainable as "certified" under a regular certification program;
• Equipment already installed or ready for use on-site and awaiting acceptance by the Authority Having Jurisdiction;
• Complete systems or subassemblies that are all available for examination and testing during the evaluation process; and,
• Other electrical equipment as determined by the Authority Having Jurisdiction.

[Rick Fisher]

Both sets of documents shed some light on "disposal" .. If you get caught with a non-csa or non inspected jointer. You can probably just hire an inspector to tell you how to make it legal.

In a residential setting, its never a problem, unless there was a problem. And then its a big, big deal..

You are not however allowed to sell it .. give it away ... or even technically allowed to dispose of the machine..

[Rick Fisher]

I challenge you to find a single example where this has happened. They would certainly have to show that your machine caused the fire. (can you find a single example of that, from a properly maintained machine?) They would then have to show that it didn't meet CSA, and that deficiency was responsible for the fire. And finally they would have to show that you were negligent in not using a CSA machine.

It is probably not something you should consider in choosing machines.

Wade, That is terrible advice.. Its probably true in NY but not in Canada.. A Canadian Insurance Company will take non-CSA machinery as an opportunity to not pay, every-time ..