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Thread: Clear Vue Cyclone...

  1. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick McCarthy View Post
    Amazing how informative Alan’s post is, and he did it without bashing anyone.
    Not even a hint of trolling.

    Alan, ditto re the great post comment from Matt
    You're right Patrick. I should just ignore the trolls. My comments certainly did not help any. Sorry about that guys.

  2. #137
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    First of all well said Michael and Allan. IMHO Bill has given more to the safety of woodworkers than most others. Was he a zealot, most definitely. His concern was not for monetary gain but to help inform others of a very real danger that many of the uninformed have poo pooed as nonsense. He did this on his own dime with the help of like minded individuals. Directly or indirectly his work has helped bring in more stringent regs to help woodworkers get better workplace protection. This compares to similar regs for workers dealing with asbestos and silica dust. He also helped his major detractors like Oneida produce a better product even though they were trying to silence him with legal action. He also put the major DC manufactures to the test with their typically overblown marketing as to actual CFM capability. He has many detractors that regularly show up on woodworking forums, there is an old saying, "it's better to keep ones mouth shut and be thought a fool, then to open it and remove all doubt". Personally I thank the man for what he has done to help and educate us on a very real danger and challenge anyone to do better.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kee View Post
    IMHO Bill has given more to the safety of woodworkers than most others. Was he a zealot, most definitely. His concern was not for monetary gain but to help inform others of a very real danger that many of the uninformed have poo pooed as nonsense.
    I have worked on leading edge technology based businesses my entire career - working beside incredible talent. And there is a saying:

    A reasonable person looks at the world and adapts.
    An unreasonable person looks at the world, and tries to get the world to adapt to them.
    Therefore, all progress is brought about by the unreasonable person

    Or to paraphrase it: "All progress is brought about by one lunatic on a rampage"

  4. #139
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    Frank, no apology needed. And my comment was not prompted by anything in your post . . . .hope that was obvious.
    Best, Patrick

  5. So let’s get to the real bits and pieces. Does Clearview really deliver what they’re bragging about??? I’ve personally tested a clear view system and it was not what I would consider real #’s. I have not tested the new Clearview system. But I think Clearview is being a little shady on their numbers too but they’re being more upfront than any other! This is just my observation....

    I’m pretty sure it’s a competitive market.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Mattingley View Post
    So let’s get to the real bits and pieces. Does Clearview really deliver what they’re bragging about??? I’ve personally tested a clear view system and it was not what I would consider real #’s. I have not tested the new Clearview system. But I think Clearview is being a little shady on their numbers too but they’re being more upfront than any other! This is just my observation....

    I’m pretty sure it’s a competitive market.
    Well Matt when I had my CV1800 I did test the numbers. My unit was from the Ed Morgano era. The test was done with a set of clean, seasoned filters (approx one year of everyday use), the duct work was all 6" PVC. My BIL works in the HVAC and part of his job entails testing airflow in test chambers for a major pharmaceutical company. He doesn't use a $50.00 low airflow meter. The unit he uses has a 4" fan and is sent out for yearly calibration. At 10' of straight pipe the reading was 1500 CFM, this seems to be one of the revised lengths most manufactures tests are done at. At 45' of pipe with multiple 45 degree elbows the reading was 1130 CFM and at 62' of pipe it was 1000 CFM. Another reading we took at 45' of pipe with 10' of 5" flex pipe averaged 1000 CFM. Don't really think they are inflating too many numbers. As a side note the test was repeated again approx 3 years later when I changed my system from Clearvue to a Felder RL160. The RL160 is another story. The filters were the newer spun bond type with a hepa rating and also well seasoned. The readings were in the same ballpark with most being 20 to 30 CFM higher. As with everything you read on the internet you are free to believe what you want.

  7. #142
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    Bill Pence, or anyone of this generation did not invent the cyclone. Drive down any old agrarian lane and you'll likely see some old farm dinosaur of 150 years ago sticking their cyclonic heads up above the weeds. The concept was used many generations before us, invented by someone who's name was lost to history, and simply appropriated by this generation as their own discovery. Forget honoring Pence's legacy, let's give credit where it is due, to the poor unknown sod who's work he and all the "cyclone gurus" of the current generation are appropriating.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Rozmiarek View Post
    Bill Pence, or anyone of this generation did not invent the cyclone. Drive down any old agrarian lane and you'll likely see some old farm dinosaur of 150 years ago sticking their cyclonic heads up above the weeds. The concept was used many generations before us, invented by someone who's name was lost to history, and simply appropriated by this generation as their own discovery. Forget honoring Pence's legacy, let's give credit where it is due, to the poor unknown sod who's work he and all the "cyclone gurus" of the current generation are appropriating.
    Found this on the internet with a simple search, fortunately the name is not lost to history "The first “cyclonic separator” was patented in 1885 by the American John M. Finch, for use as a “dust collector” in his Knickerbocker Company". I believe the patent has probably run out. Bill Pentz never took credit for the initial design, only what he and many others believe to be a more efficient design that aided in better collection of the most harmful dust.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Mattingley View Post
    So let’s get to the real bits and pieces. Does Clearview really deliver what they’re bragging about??? I’ve personally tested a clear view system and it was not what I would consider real #’s. I have not tested the new Clearview system. But I think Clearview is being a little shady on their numbers too but they’re being more upfront than any other! This is just my observation....

    I’m pretty sure it’s a competitive market.
    I had no way to do side-by-side comparison tests but purchased based on considerable reading. I decided it would do what I wanted and the price was good compared to the other options available at the time. I'm not the least disappointed. The real-bits performance of the 5hp machine is incredible, in my opinion. I have to be careful at the lathe not do drop something I don't want to have to dig through the bin to recover. Maybe they are all like this now. I do know I wouldn't want a smaller motor.

    JKJ

  10. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by John K Jordan View Post
    The real-bits performance of the 5hp machine is incredible, in my opinion.
    Oh, so THAT'S what you have that is louder than a freight train at ten paces and can potentially cause hearing damage. :^) I would build an acoustically sealed room around that too.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Kee View Post
    Found this on the internet with a simple search, fortunately the name is not lost to history "The first “cyclonic separator” was patented in 1885 by the American John M. Finch, for use as a “dust collector” in his Knickerbocker Company". I believe the patent has probably run out. Bill Pentz never took credit for the initial design, only what he and many others believe to be a more efficient design that aided in better collection of the most harmful dust.
    Ah, Mr Finch...

    It was used prior to 1885 in ag in threshing. Probably 50 years before that judging by the equipment I've seen. Most of the really early stuff is farmer made, some clever old guy had the idea, copied by his neighbor, etc. That guy was probably mad at Mr. Finch for stealing his idea.

    Many current posters and companies do claim to be pioneers in the cyclonic separator field, my point is that they are not. They took an old idea and ran with it, but to say that any of the current generation invented or designed the cyclonic separator is akin to saying Lee Valley invented the hand plane because they (arguably) improved the preceding designs.

  12. #147
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    There is another saying in technology development:

    "There are no 'new' ideas..."

    (or some will concede there are some unique/new ideas, but they are very very few and far between even though zillions of ideas have patents around them very few are truly 'new').

    Fact is, it doesnt matter whether an idea is new or not or who invented it (it might matter who patented it). Having grown up on a farm I am pretty confident that those old timers didnt get their pants in a bunch because someone copied an idea they had - they were just trying to get all the work done while some daylight left and besides:

    "Plagiarism is the highest form of flattery..."

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Rozmiarek View Post
    Ah, Mr Finch...

    It was used prior to 1885 in ag in threshing. Probably 50 years before that judging by the equipment I've seen. Most of the really early stuff is farmer made, some clever old guy had the idea, copied by his neighbor, etc. That guy was probably mad at Mr. Finch for stealing his idea.

    Many current posters and companies do claim to be pioneers in the cyclonic separator field, my point is that they are not. They took an old idea and ran with it, but to say that any of the current generation invented or designed the cyclonic separator is akin to saying Lee Valley invented the hand plane because they (arguably) improved the preceding designs.
    Steve I agree. It's amazing what many companies try to pull off with their marketing BS whether its glue or cyclones. The more its marketed the less chance I will even consider using a product.
    Last edited by John Kee; 02-24-2019 at 8:15 AM.

  14. #149
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    I have never questioned Bill Pentz's expertise on dust collector design. His web page continues to supply useful information to lots of people. I go there from time to time to get specific information. What I questioned many years ago and still question today is his assessment of the risks of wood dust in the average hobby shop. I believe his own personal health problems twisted his judgement. For example, at one point, he made the statement that every woodworking machine needed at least 1000 cfm of air flow strategically placed in order to be safe. That is absurd and essentially unachievble in the average home shop environment. His shock tactics have discouraged many a potential woodworker from adopting the hobby for fear of killing themselves. When I asked him for his credentials, he didn't offer any. When I asked him for proof of his assertions, he supplied links to two studies that were done in Europe (IIRC). I guess he thought I wouldn't follow up on them. I can't remember anything about one study except that it wasn't relevant. The other study was done is a sawmill environment if memory serves correctly and involved workers who had spent their entire lives working in a bad environment with no protection of any kind. In the end, it seemed to me his dire predictions were only based on his own non-woodworking related health problem. What I am saying is not hearsay to me. He was communicating directly to me and some other people with similar concerns. I could go on for a long time about how rude he was to people and how he got booted of certain forums but that was in the past and I am tired of talking about it.

  15. #150
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    I think the risk from inhaling wood dust depends a lot on the individual. I know people who have worked a lifetime in dusty shops with no apparent problems. On the other hand, a turner in our club had to give up wood completely after he became so sensitized he couldn't even go into his shop anymore. He sold the house and had a new house built. I think he took up metalworking.

    I've had asthma since a teen and because of that may be more cautious than some. I can appreciate Pentz's experience on that basis.

    JKJ

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