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Thread: Clear Vue Cyclone...

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art Mann View Post
    You really need to use a hot wire anemometer to measure the velocity in an area that small. The little fan will have more of an effect than you might think. Also, as Phil said, you need to have some way to compensate for the fact that air velocity is very far from uniform across the cross section. With a hot wire anemometer, you can measure velocity at many points at the inlet and then average them as a pretty good approximation of the effective air velocity. My observation of small diameter pipe has been that the average air flow is something like 0.6 to 0.7 of the maximum.
    I understand that my measurement isn't good to the third decimal place, but it does give an indication of roughly what is happening. And it is not like the anemometer impeller is 1/10 the diameter of the pipe. I am presuming that the obstruction of the anemometer roughly compensates for the slightly higher velocity in the center portion of the pipe. So I will stand by the numbers as being a not-to-distant approximation of the average velocity and subsequently the airflow. I am thinking probably within 20% or 100 cfm.

  2. #92
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    How right or wrong Pentz might be shouldn't be the focus here. If you look at commercial cyclone designs for woodworking from Torit, Aget, Sternvent, Air Sentry, and others you will find they are almost all the same. Neutral vane with helical baffle but no involute inlet or vortex breaker. Those come in the high efficiency high resistance cyclones. The Pentz design tweaks the commercial ones a little but mainly differs more from some hobby cyclones than commercial more expensive to manufacture ones. Woodworking cyclones are tested at 30 microns and get significantly less efficient as the particle size decreases. To get 80-90% efficiency with 5-10 micron size you get into a whole different design. Whether you buy CV, Oneida, Grizzly or any other cyclone of basically the same diameter and cone length you will only see incremental differences, not any of them 20 times better or worse. Prior to Pentz work there were systems sized too small given the sp added by ductwork, cyclone and filters so his contribution to increasing flow in hobby systems was and is valid. He may not have been completely correct but I think he caused us to think which is usually a good thing. I run a Torit cyclone with a Cincinnati impeller and Wynn filters so I have no loyalty. I've run Blue Tornado, Oneida, and Torit impellers and cyclones, and still run a Coral four bagger on the widebelt so there is no emotional attachment. Dave

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    How right or wrong Pentz might be shouldn't be the focus here.
    As laudable as that is BP is the only person who has done any in depth study at the hobby level so he sets himself up as a target. It seems that no one wants to do the same amount of study to either corroborate what he has published or advance other thoughts on the subject. David, I can recall you and a few others getting all excited about writing a book some time back, are you going anywhere on this?
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  4. #94
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    No Chris, you have me mixed up with someone else. I will add that the CV gets good and bad reviews for the material used but the economic realities are that the Pentz design is expensive to build in steel. I believe they have experimented with a steel version but found the manufacturing costs took it into the realm of the commercial units. The price of a Torit 20" cyclone which is similar is more than an entire hobby system. I opted for used commercial cyclones and bought a couple that were cheap to compare. Dave

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    As laudable as that is BP is the only person who has done any in depth study at the hobby level so he sets himself up as a target. It seems that no one wants to do the same amount of study to either corroborate what he has published or advance other thoughts on the subject. David, I can recall you and a few others getting all excited about writing a book some time back, are you going anywhere on this?
    Bill, I and another person were in initial stages of writing a DC book a few years ago. For a number of reasons including other demands on our time, we never got past the initial discussions about format and a rough content outline, but I don't think I ever mentioned it on any WW forum. I have gotten involved in other things, and except for XMAS email greetings, haven't talked to Bill in a few years now.

    Anyone who has visited Bill's website over the years can see he (and others) have put a lot of work into an ongoing effort to revise it and there is always the possibility its content could be transitioned into a book. The information on his website is far more thorough and accurate that that found in the two most popular dust collection books out there (by Rick Peters and Sandor Nagyszalanczy). As to Bill's taking ClearVue royalties, as far as I know, that is something Ed Morgano started and the Bushey Bros have voluntarily continued. Neither were, or are, under any obligation to do so since the design has been in the public domain so is not, and can not be patented, has a number of features that are derivative of industrial cyclones that preceded it, etc. And why shouldn't he receive some compensation for the enormous amount of time and effort he has devoted over the years to research, testing, and voluntarily helping hundreds of people personally and thousands indirectly? I'll bet Phil wishes he was getting some compensation for his baffle.
    Last edited by Alan Schaffter; 01-17-2014 at 9:53 AM.

  6. #96
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    Didn't Woodwhisperer knock ClearVue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Mahan View Post
    One point is the ClearVue cyclone & filters are a kit . The skills of who ever assembles the kit are a variable . When the Woodwhisper did his review ClearVue supervised the installation . & Yes ClearVue has ads on his site
    Thanks for bringing up Woodwhisperer's ClearVue. I may be confused, but I seem to remember Woodwhisperer also put the Oneida over the ClearVue. His was a very informal test, with no air particulate measurements, but for what's it's worth he confirmed Wood Mag's findings. Oddly, despite his findings, he chose to keep the ClearVue for his shop -- perhaps because ClearVue offered it to him or gave him a decent price so they wouldn't have to take it back or maybe he just liked it more -- it is a very nice looking device that performs exceedingly well. Remember, these 2 DC's work quite hugely better than the next closest contender, so in practical terms we might be talking about 1 part/million (Oneida) versus 20 parts/million (ClearVue) versus 30,000 parts/million (the next best). One can't go wrong with either of these 2 top performers.

    Nearly a year after the review, I find it interesting that we've heard nothing back from ClearVue or Bill Pentz. It could be Bill's health, but he is passionate, knowledgeable, and talented enough on this subject to respond with either an explanation or an improvement. Let's be patient, because he's really good and I suspect he will respond with an improvement(s). Just like Paul Thien's work, Bill Pentz has chosen to put all of his knowledge up on the internet for individuals to freely explore, to review, to copy, and to use, which is a fundamentally brave and generous public service. Please, let's not start knocking those who honor the spirit of the sharing nature of the internet; instead, maybe we can collectively put our heads together to figure this out, make some improvements, and then continue with the sharing.
    Last edited by Bradley Potts; 01-17-2014 at 12:34 PM. Reason: Formating went coocoo

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley Potts View Post
    Thanks for bringing up Woodwhisperer's ClearVue. I may be confused, but I seem to remember Woodwhisperer also put the Oneida over the ClearVue. His was a very informal test, with no air particulate measurements, but for what's it's worth he confirmed Wood Mag's findings. Oddly, despite his findings, he chose to keep the ClearVue for his shop -- perhaps because ClearVue offered it to him or gave him a decent price so they wouldn't have to take it back or maybe he just liked it more -- it is a very nice looking device that performs exceedingly well. Remember, these 2 DC's work quite hugely better than the next closest contender, so in practical terms we might be talking about 1 part/million (Oneida) versus 20 parts/million (ClearVue) versus 30,000 parts/million (the next best). One can't go wrong with either of these 2 top performers.

    Nearly a year after the review, I find it interesting that we've heard nothing back from ClearVue or Bill Pentz. It could be Bill's health, but he is passionate, knowledgeable, and talented enough on this subject to respond with either an explanation or an improvement. Let's be patient, because he's really good and I suspect he will respond with an improvement(s). Just like Paul Thien's work, Bill Pentz has chosen to put all of his knowledge up on the internet for individuals to freely explore, to review, to copy, and to use, which is a fundamentally brave and generous public service. Please, let's not start knocking those who honor the spirit of the sharing nature of the internet; instead, maybe we can collectively put our heads together to figure this out, make some improvements, and then continue with the sharing.
    I don't follow the WW that much, but I thought he tested the mini cyclones (and picked the Oneida as the winner). But for his BIG cyclone, I thought he used a CV but wasn't aware he had done any direct comparisons or reviews.

    Also, BP was banned on this site several years ago. In light of the fact that he was banned, he isn't likely to respond (at least at this site). Furthermore, some people keep picking on the guy and that is somewhat unfair, as he can't respond/defend himself. Again, please don't confuse me w/ a BP or CV supporter (or detractor). Just want to keep things fair.

  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley Potts View Post
    Thanks for bringing up Woodwhisperer's ClearVue. I may be confused, but I seem to remember Woodwhisperer also put the Oneida over the ClearVue. His was a very informal test, with no air particulate measurements, but for what's it's worth he confirmed Wood Mag's findings. Oddly, despite his findings, he chose to keep the ClearVue for his shop -- perhaps because ClearVue offered it to him or gave him a decent price so they wouldn't have to take it back or maybe he just liked it more
    You are confused, the comparison he did was with the shop vac bins, not the full size duct collectors.
    http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/vide...ator-shootout/
    -Dan

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Thien View Post
    Also, BP was banned on this site several years ago.
    And just about every other one.


  10. Originally Posted by Bradley Potts
    Thanks for bringing up Woodwhisperer's ClearVue. I may be confused, but I seem to remember Woodwhisperer also put the Oneida over the ClearVue. His was a very informal test, with no air particulate measurements, but for what's it's worth he confirmed Wood Mag's findings. Oddly, despite his findings, he chose to keep the ClearVue for his shop -- perhaps because ClearVue offered it to him or gave him a decent price so they wouldn't have to take it back or maybe he just liked it more
    WW never compared a full size Oneida to a ClearVue that I can find , I've watched all of the WW video that I can find & gone back over his old blog posts as well .
    Last edited by Michael Mahan; 01-17-2014 at 1:52 PM. Reason: correction
    Mike >............................................/ Maybe I'm doing this Babysitting Gig to throw off the Authorities \................................................<

  11. #101
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    If you check out the Mar'c (The Wood Whisperer) shop, you'll see he uses a Clearvue. In Video 200 on his free section he shows its installation.

    Jim
    One can never have too many planes and chisels... or so I'm learning!!

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Portland View Post
    If all the seams in the entire system are sealed then the *only* dust leakage should occur through the filter media (based on the media specification). The reviewers should have known this and realized that something was wrong.

    When I bought my CV the only other option with the required performance was what is now the Oneida industrial line ($3k+). Everyone seems to focus on the plastic of the CV but I've found it to be extremely durable. My gripe is the MDF... I would have gladly paid an optional upcharge for Phenolic or Appleply. Yes, sealing the entire system is a big PITA and I did have to go back and hit a few missed areas. When there was a $1500+ price differential in systems I was happy to spend the day assembling & tweaking the unit. Now it's a harder decision with cheaper but high performance bolt-together metal options on the market...
    One of the benefits of the CV for me is that it is much lighter than a metal cyclone, which made assembling it a lot easier.

    Noel

  13. #103
    Not trying to stir things up here anymore than they already are, but why would Mr. Pentz be banned from a site that discusses dust collection if he has information that might be useful to others??

  14. #104
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    BP does occassionley contribute to at least one other forum and I know he is very welcome there. The sad fact is that he does it very infrequently these days as he is obviously unwelcome in a lot of places. You can see why as the furor DE causes and his strong beliefs cause a lot of strong debate.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Rodoracio View Post
    Not trying to stir things up here anymore than they already are, but why would Mr. Pentz be banned from a site that discusses dust collection if he has information that might be useful to others??
    You can use the search function to go back through many of the discussions in which he participated, here and elsewhere.

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