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Thread: Clear Vue Cyclone...

  1. Quote Originally Posted by Ole Anderson View Post
    Makes you wonder who is right. Many fan curves from the manufacturers don't agree, even roughly, with curves in the side by side magazine tests. At least the tests by the magazines, and there have been more than one, supposedly test all of the machines in the same manner, so there is a fair comparison between them. I would lean toward using curves from a side by side test rather than manufacturer's curves simply because you have no idea if the manufacturer's info is right compared to another manufacturer's data.
    There is no standard testing method to make it easy for consumers to compare stats from one company to another almost a waste of time.
    But, I tried anyways, when I was looking to buy a cyclone in 2011. I gathered as many stats and curves as I could find and entered them into a spreadsheeet for comparison.

    One of the strange numbers was the 22 amperage rating of both the shop fox and griz 3 hp cyclone. (22amps X 220 volts= 4840 watts / 746 = 6.48 computed hp) Not sure how this works, but I have two 5 hp USA made motors that are rated at less than 22 amps.


    Another annoying stat was the CFM rating found on Oneida's website section (comparison advantage) for the 3 hp super gorilla. The page shows an unnamed competitors stats for comparison, which based on the stats, was a Grizzly. The griz had 1654 cfm at 2" of static pressure, as compared to 1713 for the S.gorilla. I charted this info into the spreadsheet along with numbers pulled from fan curve charts. When you look at the stats for the Super Gorilla there is a fan chart that shows 1554 cfm at 1.8", and the line is at about 1500 cfm at the 2" static pressure mark. I'm not an engineer, but I was left scratching my head, trying to figure out out how the S.Gorilla could have two CFM numbers that were about 213 cfm diffrent at the same static pressure. I e-mailed Oneida about this, 3 years ago. Their reply was that the competitive advantage comparison was based on a prior version of the S.G while the stats page reflected their current production model. They said they would have their IT dept make the correction shortly.

    Well.... Their IT dept. must be mighty busy as the same inaccurate "competitive comparison" stats are still there for all to read with the assumption that they are correct.


    Disclosure: I ended up buying a 3 hp shop fox 1809, because it was being discontinued and was discounted down to $ 1,110.00 plus gas to pick it up and I was into it for under $ 1200. My biggest concern with the S.F. was the motor. With the savings between the S.Fox and my 2nd choice "Clear-Vue" and 3rd choice "Super Gorilla", I could buy a new Baldor motor if the shop fox motor quit and still have spent less than my 2nd or 3rd choice.


    my.02

  2. #122
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    Oneida performance is not the issue. The problem is that Wood magazine published results that run contrary to other peoples *measured* results (dylos meter in their shop). If I read a car publication that said the top speed for a Corvette was 95mph I would question the validity of the test procedure. The same thing is going on here...

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert morrison View Post
    One of the strange numbers was the 22 amperage rating of both the shop fox and griz 3 hp cyclone. (22amps X 220 volts= 4840 watts / 746 = 6.48 computed hp) Not sure how this works, but I have two 5 hp USA made motors that are rated at less than 22 amps.

    my.02
    Robert,

    I'm not going to engage in what some people consider a near Holy War but will share a bit of information with you.

    The 746 watts per horsepower is the mathematically correct conversion factor but does not take into consideration inducatance, reactance and other motor losses. There are 5hp motors that draw around 20A and others that are over 30. Some of that is efficiency in design, some of that can be the use of extra mass to better carry away heat (more mass generally = more losses) and *generally* longer life, some of that can be the design of the motor and some can be the bearing design / tolerances. There's likely more I haven't mentioned here but suffice to say it is deceiving to try to "do the conversion".

    For example, Ugly's electrical reference gives a FLA rule of thumb of 17A for a 3hp 240V and 28A for a 5hp. Mine on my 5hp Unisaw is 20A. The "do the math" using Volts X Amps / 746 watts = HP would predict 15.5A for 5hp at 240V. You won't find an honestly advertised motor that meets that.

    I say "honestly advertised" because of companies like Sears that rates their 120V, 11A shop vac at 6HP and we know that's impossible. Or, as I call it, "Through the miracle of modern merchandising..".

    Jim Neeley
    Electrical PE
    One can never have too many planes and chisels... or so I'm learning!!

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert morrison View Post
    Another annoying stat was the CFM rating found on Oneida's website section (comparison advantage) for the 3 hp super gorilla. The page shows an unnamed competitors stats for comparison, which based on the stats, was a Grizzly. The griz had 1654 cfm at 2" of static pressure, as compared to 1713 for the S.gorilla. I charted this info into the spreadsheet along with numbers pulled from fan curve charts. When you look at the stats for the Super Gorilla there is a fan chart that shows 1554 cfm at 1.8", and the line is at about 1500 cfm at the 2" static pressure mark. I'm not an engineer, but I was left scratching my head, trying to figure out out how the S.Gorilla could have two CFM numbers that were about 213 cfm diffrent at the same static pressure. I e-mailed Oneida about this, 3 years ago. Their reply was that the competitive advantage comparison was based on a prior version of the S.G while the stats page reflected their current production model. They said they would have their IT dept make the correction shortly.

    Well.... Their IT dept. must be mighty busy as the same inaccurate "competitive comparison" stats are still there for all to read with the assumption that they are correct.
    While I love my 2 hp Oneida SDG, I too am annoyed by the conflicting fan curve date on their website. I brought it to their attention and I see they have revised the opening page to actually show the fan curve ("product detail tab"), but the conflict still exists. If you go to the "technical specs" tab and pick the spec sheet .pdf file, you find a different curve. From my measurements, I believe the .pdf file to be the more accurate of the two. Max suction shows 8.9" wc with 6.8" at 800 cfm which correlates with my measurements, while the fan curve you first see on the page shows 10.65" maximum and 7.7" at 800 cfm, which I find to be significant. In fact, had I known the actual performance, I would have spent the extra to go with the 3 hp model which really steps up the performance with 12.5" wc maximum suction and 9.9" at 800 cfm.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    I have often wondered and have asked the question before, why does DE cause such a huge contrast in views, some quite strong. Even the manufacturers, particularly Oneida, take extremely strong positions.
    DIY'ers always talk about how cheaply they've assembled a cyclone system, so I'll take a gander and say there must be a lot of money at stake in this game, at least from the manufacturers point of view.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Shields View Post
    DIY'ers always talk about how cheaply they've assembled a cyclone system, so I'll take a gander and say there must be a lot of money at stake in this game, at least from the manufacturers point of view.
    I'm going to expand on this to say that it is very "competitive". The hobby woodworking DC market is a very niche market. The equipment is bound by floor space, height, and power requirements. If you deviate significantly from the competitors on either of these, you could loose a large portion of the target market. Obviously, price is the other big elephant in the room. It is very often that you see someone decidng to go to a certain manufacturer, choose a particular model, or delay pulling the trigger to wait on a sale over a small relative difference in price.

    Most hobbyiests are inherently frugal (I know I am), and often pros and industrials too, some industries and companies more so than others. The "cost" for design alone for a small custom industrial system can dwarf the purchase "price" of some of the retail units. I'm not intending any of this to be negative, just that it is part of the game in which those mfg's play.

    Because of these limiting factors, it is hard to believe the results from the test referred to in the OP. The CV unit is similar enough to the others that a difference of this magnitude doesn't seem right.

    Mike

  7. I know this is old, but, just to correct art mann, Bill Pentz is definitely an engineer. Not sure how you missed that one. Have you read anything he has written? It’s pretty obvious, being an engineer myself, that he IS an engineer, even before he tells you that he is. It disgusts me when people don’t take the time to research, but spout their mouths off, conveying bad knowedge to be spread around the internet. He has THREE engineering degrees along with countless other accolades. I built his plans over 10 years ago, and have nothing but respect and admiration for such an accomplished individual who chose not money, but to share what he had learned so that others could stay safe and not endanger their health, as he had. My cyclone, even being built by me, has performed flawless over all those years. It wasn’t until I visited a friends shop that I realized what fine dust and a scary, messy hazard could be created, without a cyclone.

    Mike
    Last edited by Michael Overbey; 02-21-2019 at 7:55 AM. Reason: Added detail

  8. #128
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    Bill Pentz did not choose to share his knowledge at the expense of his personal wealth. He represented himself on at least a couple of forums as an independent expert on the subject of dust collection and endorsed Clearvue equipment. It was later revealed that he had a financial interest in the Clearvue company which he kept secret. That is unethical behavior and destroyed whatever credibility he had in my eyes. He was also kicked off a couple of forums about that time for his obnoxious interactions with people who disagreed with him. I don't know what his educational status is 10 years later but would like to hear about it if you have any credible information. I will certainly stop saying that about him if I am wrong.

    Edit: I found an on line resume where Pentz earned degrees in Computer Engineering. That is laudable but I fail to see how that qualified him to be an expert in industrial hygiene. I still believe his assessment of the risks of inhaling small quantities are wildly exaggerated. I have a degree in Electrical Engineering (not a generic "general engineering" degree). I certainly don't claim that makes me an expert.
    Last edited by Art Mann; 02-21-2019 at 11:37 AM.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Overbey View Post
    I know this is old, but, just to correct art mann, Bill Pentz is definitely an engineer. Not sure how you missed that one. Have you read anything he has written? It’s pretty obvious, being an engineer myself, that he IS an engineer, even before he tells you that he is. It disgusts me when people don’t take the time to research, but spout their mouths off, conveying bad knowedge to be spread around the internet. He has THREE engineering degrees along with countless other accolades. I built his plans over 10 years ago, and have nothing but respect and admiration for such an accomplished individual who chose not money, but to share what he had learned so that others could stay safe and not endanger their health, as he had. My cyclone, even being built by me, has performed flawless over all those years. It wasn’t until I visited a friends shop that I realized what fine dust and a scary, messy hazard could be created, without a cyclone.

    Mike
    So, you join this forum just so you can use your first post to trash someone over some 5 year old comments? I don't know @Art Mann, or have even read this long thread, but you really are not contributing anything here & maybe you should just move on.

  10. Art, yes he also has a biomedical engineering degree and not sure of the third. I think if you do the research youíll find he has done his. Clearvue was a company that came later. He did not start the website nor the research in order to start a company. They approached him about building the cyclones since Bill wasnít interested. If someone approached you, wouldnít you endorse it for a $$cut, especially when you donít want the business of building them?? I would. As far as why he was kicked off the site, there are two sides to every story. I guess we all reach our own conclusions.

    Frank,

    YOUR comment lends nothing to the discussion. Did you look at my join date? Know how to read?? Maybe, just maybe I read a lot and donít post much....hmmm, ever opened your mind to think about the math on that one. Trash someone?? Really?? Iím CLARIFYING a BIG wrong on Bills MULTIPLE degrees. Maybe you should go read and report back, before accusing me a trashing someone. Again! Thatís how bad information gets passed around the internet. Maybe you should move on....and do your research before speaking, like some of us.

    Mike

  11. #131
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    I was there. I read his original posts. I am one of many who thought his comments were unprofessional and inappropriate. His absence was not generally missed.

    If I endorsed a company representing myself as a technical expert, I would feel compelled to tell my readers up front if I had a financial interest in endorsing the product. Anyone who would do otherwise has no ethics. You can, of course, live however you like. Thanks for the warning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Overbey View Post
    If someone approached you, wouldnít you endorse it for a $$cut, especially when you donít want the business of building them?? I would. As far as why he was kicked off the site, there are two sides to every story. I guess we all reach our own conclusions.
    Mike

  12. Art,

    I know only heresay as most of that has been erased. I built my cyclone long before clear vue was put together. I’m sure we could go on and on and may never know the truth or whole story. I agree with your comments on disclosure, but again don’t know the whole story. What I don’t understand is how you know all of this but still failed to recognize Bill as an engineer? I’m a ME, you an EE.. I’m sure you recognize the “speak” very clearly. Was this of spite, or truly you didn’t research him? I did my full research before investing in a DC, including who was writing the information and what their qualifications were. I’ve yet to find any one individual possessing more qualifications and investing the time required to promote dust collection standards to the home hobbyist woodworker, as well as other small businesses. And for that, I thank him. I know few individuals who would go to that extent, without requiring payment(donations were accepted). IF he was in it to make money, it would have been clear from the beginning to the present. His site is still up, FREE. So, I may not know the whole story, but I can stand back, use common sense, and see the picture being painted. So for those all caught up in the “not-disclosing interest” theme, I ask you is that one detail so important that you can’t see past it? Given the facts, do you really think Bill is only out to make money? What have you or anyone else done to promote the dust collection and education of it to the home hobbyist?

    My original post was only to clarify that not only IS Bill Pentz an engineer, but that he has several degrees. It really bothers me, given what he has contributed to the home hobbyist, that people will discount him, defame him, and find fault with anything relative to what he has given back. See the big picture.

    Mike
    Last edited by Michael Overbey; 02-21-2019 at 11:01 PM.

  13. #133
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    I have been a member here since 2003 and Badger Pond before that, as well as a number of other woodworking forums. I can proudly say, like many in the day, I was also temporary banned from Badger Pond by the sawdust Nazi who ran that site (In my case it was for trying to help a fellow woodworker.) I have corresponded with Jim Halbert (despite the Oneida patent which came years later, he was the one who really invented the mini-cyclone, which he posted about, and which was therefore in the public domain and technically not patentable!) and Bill since those early days. I was one of the (the) first to incorporate the spiral inlet ramp and a longer cone into the Wood cyclone design before building Bill's design. I have corresponded with Bill on and off since those days. We, along with Michael Standish, a woodworking author, were in the early stages of writing the definitive dust collection book, which included our bios. which I have.

    All I can say is NOBODY posting here knows Bill's full story and more than a few have made incorrect assumptions and flat out wrong statements and timelines. And, if you have followed the development of the Oneida cyclone from their early disastrous filter in the middle design to their current designs, it is clear they and to some degree Grizzly, years later eventually incorporated all of the improvements Bill introduced, e.g. longer cone, neutral vane, spiral inlet ramp, angled rectangular inlet. As to the relationship with ClearVue (first with Ed Morgano and then the Bushey Brothers), since Bills design is not patented, they were under no obligation to compensate him for his design- but they valued his participation so have done so anyway. As to Bill's problems with forums, you can debate that all you want, but what is fact, is that while Bill is arguably a bit of a zealot and not always politically correct, he has posted more useful dust collection information than any other hobby or professional woodworker (initially at his personal expense), most of what he claimed has eventually been proven correct, his design works, and no small point- the forums involved are partially supported by advertising dollars from his competition/critics.
    Last edited by Alan Schaffter; 02-21-2019 at 10:13 PM.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Alan Schaffter View Post
    I have been a member here since 2003 and Badger Pond before that, as well as a number of other woodworking forums. I can proudly say, like many in the day, I was also temporary banned from Badger Pond by the sawdust Nazi who ran that site (In my case it was for trying to help a fellow woodworker.) I have corresponded with Jim Halbert (despite the Oneida patent which came years later, he was the one who really invented the mini-cyclone, which he posted about, and which was therefore in the public domain and technically not patentable!) and Bill since those early days. I was one of the (the) first to incorporate the spiral inlet ramp and a longer cone into the Wood cyclone design before building Bill's design. I have corresponded with Bill on and off since those days. We, along with Michael Standish, a woodworking author, were in the early stages of writing the definitive dust collection book, which included our bios. which I have.

    All I can say is NOBODY posting here knows Bill's full story and more than a few have made incorrect assumptions and flat out wrong statements and timelines. And, if you have followed the development of the Oneida cyclone from their early disastrous filter in the middle design to their current designs, it is clear they and to some degree Grizzly, years later eventually incorporated all of the improvements Bill introduced, e.g. longer cone, neutral vane, spiral inlet ramp, angled rectangular inlet. As to the relationship with ClearVue (first with Ed Morgano and then the Bushey Brothers), since Bills design is not patented, they were under no obligation to compensate him for his design- but they valued his participation so have done so anyway. As to Bill's problems with forums, you can debate that all you want, but what is fact, is that while Bill is arguably a bit of a zealot and not always politically correct, he has posted more useful dust collection information than any other hobby or professional woodworker (initially at his personal expense), most of what he claimed has eventually been proven correct, his design works, and no small point- the forums involved are partially supported by advertising dollars from his competition/critics.
    ALAN, Bill Pentz, Ed............ and a few dozen others that worked on the complex design, I actually put it to the challenge. I actually designed my own blower in and around the unit. I over built the design of the blower with minimal weight and kept most of the specs true. I’ve built the whole unit out of stainless steel including the blower.

    The funny thing is is I built the whole unit on my hobby time for under $1000, including most of the duck work and a blast gates.


    Great post ALAN!

  15. #135
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    Amazing how informative Alan’s post is, and he did it without bashing anyone.
    Not even a hint of trolling.

    Alan, ditto re the great post comment from Matt

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