David Savage on bench planes

[Hilton Ralphs]

There are about 15 student benches in the workshop and if I look under each of them we would find either a Clifton plane or a Lie Nielsen plane. We have had Veritas planes in the workshop, they were fashionable at one time, but we have had real problems with them maintaining absolute flatness of the sole over a period of time. This may well have been a manufacturing problem that they've overcome but we haven't seen more recently manufactured planes in order to test them so we cannot recommend Veritas at the moment.

The other crucial element to consider is the blade. Lie Nielsen offers an A2 cryogenically treated blade. This, in my experience, is a blade which will hold an edge for a very long time. However it will not take as sharp an edge as I would like. I've spent over 30 years working with high carbon steel blades. In my experience they take a much sharper edge than is possible with the A2 steel. A high carbon steel edge is keener, more sharp, but it needs sharpening more often. The very best blades for planes, in my opinion, are manufactured by Clifton. These are forged welded high carbon steel blades that come close to the qualities of the very best Sheffield steel.

Clifton bench planes made in Sheffield are less expensive than the Lie Nielsen equivalent. I see students every year buying Lie Nielson simply because it is more expensive. They think by paying a little more they getting a better tool. I think they're mistaken. If I were buying bench planes now they would all be made by Clifton.

Ja well no so fine, as we say in South Africa.

[Metod Alif]

Maybe the time spent on checking for absolute flatness would be better spent on learning how to use well, and take a better care of the planes.
Downloading knowledge is easier than developing understanding of what to do with it.
Best wishes,
Metod

[george wilson]

Sheffield and Solingen have been running on their reputations for over 200 years,say some knowledgable craftsmen.

It is true that A2 will not take quite as sharp an edge as far as I have ever been able to tell. When I was trying to skive fluffy,soft as down vegetable tanned sea ray skin,only a W1 blade would get sharp enough to skive it in my block plane. Maybe I am not using the best sharpening media?

It is when you are trying to cut the softest imaginable stuff that the need for superior sharpness really shows up.

For ordinary purposes,A2 works fine.

[David Weaver]

And eskilstuna.

Sheffield doesn't seem to fetch high amounts of money, but eskilstuna, and sometimes solingen. Wusthof can get pretty good coin for knives with 0.5% carbon (they work fine, but are noticeably softer than the friodur knives, which I believe are 440C, or just under 1% carbon).

[george wilson]

.5% carbon is absolutely MISERABLY low for cutlery steel. No wonder they are softer. In a test of chisels that Fine Woodworking did years ago,Craftsman chisels made in Holland came out as the worst. They had .5 carbon in them. That low a carbon content is close to the lower threshold at which steel will harden well enough to take a decent edge,but the edge will not last at all,having very poor wear resistance. 4140 steel,with .40% carbon,will get a little TOUGH,but not hard enough for a cutting edge. It is used in axles and other machine parts where toughness is desirable.

[Kees Heiden]

These must have been made in the Nooitgedagt factory. They used to be the largest chisel manufacturer in the world for some time in the seventies. I have a plane iron from them from that time period, used it for a while in my Record #5. Now I have the record iron back into the plane, because the edge would fold over. Not a little bit, but really folding over like it wasn't hardened at all. Nooitgedagt isn't around anymore, why would that be?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Hilton

Again, I would guess that this is an old article that he is retreading - he's got to be out there.

There is just so much incorrect information here.

For a start, if he is not getting a sharp edge out of A2, then he is not using the appropriate media.

The Clifton blades may be forged welded high carbon steel, but the one I have required flattening (a lot) and in my recent shooting plane test it came in last place in terms of edge holding. A2 lasted twice as long in the same bevel down plane. A blade that dulls quickly is going to create problems when planing. One may argue that is does depend on the wood you use, that is, how abrasive it is. I would counter that it depends on your sharpening media - whether you are in control of the steel you use. I would not use steel that I cannot sharpen efficiently.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Hilton Ralphs]

Again, I would guess that this is an old article that he is retreading - he's got to be out there.

There is just so much incorrect information here.

Yes of course Derek. Just interesting to see someone else's take on the LN and Veritas products.

BTW, here is a picture of a Clifton Cap Iron/Chipbreaker screw.

Cap_Iron_Screw.jpg

[george wilson]

Yes,anyone's take EXCEPT DAVID FREAKING SAVAGE!!!!

[Chris Griggs]

Yes of course Derek. Just interesting to see someone else's take on the LN and Veritas products.

BTW, here is a picture of a Clifton Cap Iron/Chipbreaker screw.

Cap_Iron_Screw.jpg

That screw is totally inferior!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You are hilarious my friend.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Last I looked, Clifton were more expensive than LN, but just pulling it up now, the difference is minimal - it must be related to currency differences more than anything here in the States, but I don't know what the cost difference ends up for buyers on the other side of the pond.

I have a Clifton jointer plane I snagged cheap on the eBay. It's masochistically heavy, (I'd love a jointer plane with the precision of a modern plane, but the weight of a vintage bailey)

Compared to the LN I've used, I've rather have gone that direction. The fit and finish of the Clifton just doesn't feel quite as nice - adjustments are just more awkward feeling, I still haven't figured out how to set the lever cap to the point where you can make more than a little bit of adjustment without releasing it, short of having everything too loose. The depth adjuster doesn't feel as nice in my hand. A lot of polished surfaces are dubbed over quite a bit like they were done sloppily on a slack belt or something. The handles leave a bit to be desired; same sort of finished on a slack-belt look and feel, with an upper horn that's uneven, too short and pointy. I mean, nothing is terrible about it, - it's a great worker and has pretty much replaced my junky old Millers Falls to the point where I'm thinking I''m going to sell it, and it's precise in the sole where it really needs to be, and the British green looks great, but for the new retail price, I'd want something that matches the fit and finish of the Lie Nielsen tools, given the price is about the same.

That said, I have no idea how old mine is, and maybe they're better now, or I got a particularly funky example. For the price I payed used, I can't complain at all.

And then, there's that stupid cap-iron. I can't figure out for the life of me how to make the "stay set" thing work; I just put my LV breaker on it.

[Chris Vandiver]

Clifton plane blades may be forged but they are not forge welded.

[Derek Cohen]

And then, there's that stupid cap-iron. I can't figure out for the life of me how to make the "stay set" thing work; I just put my LV breaker on it.

Hi Joshua

I epoxied the stupid thing together. It dropped one time too many on my toes!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim R Edwards]

I agree with the original recommendation concerning the quality of Clifton. I own Clifton, LN, and LV planes and my favorite bevel down plane is the Clifton. The handles feel and look much better than the cheap cherry LN uses however, the LV tote and handle are the most comfortable to me. The green paint looks very nice and i like the round sides of the Clifton. The blade adjuster has a little more play than LN and LV but it still works well. The blade, cap iron, and weight are my favorite things about the plane. It is heavy! I never worry about setting the chip breaker and the blade gets extremely sharp. Planes highly figured curly maple, sapelle, and bubinga just fine w/ the chip breaker about a 1/16 away from the blade!!!

The Clifton blade gets sharper than my LN and LV using a 8000 norton water stone but doesn't last as long. For durability purposes I have the best results with LN A2. It performs better than my LV O1, A2, and PM steel. I have terrible problems with LV blade edges chipping. Tried numerous angles and grinding the blade back with no results. The fit and finish of LV blades is the best though. If I could only prevent them from chipping I would be very happy!

I have never understood why Clifton's have a mediocre reputation but I'm glad the man who assembles his furniture with nails gave a poor review of them. I can get them cheaper than LV and LN!

[David Weaver]

Cliftons have a mediocre reputation because they had worse quality than LN about a decade ago or a little less, and the support in response to the problems was well documented on another forum - that being that the affected individuals who had dud planes never were made whole either by the retailer or clifton.

I recall Bob Feaser (sp?) describing a problem with a frog that was not milled squarely or something to that effect and numerous claims that he'd be made right, but no action ever taken by anyone to do it.

That was contrasted by LN and LV who will basically make you whole even if they know you're the cause of the problem.

(of course, the people who had "good" cliftons were perfectly satisfied).