'New Arn', or: How important is 'Made In The USA' to you?

[Janis Stipins]

I've been thinking a lot about the state of American manufacturing --- specifically, I've been thinking about what it would take to build a successful American company that could create the next generation of 'old arn' tools that our grandkids would still be able to use.

The bottom line is that it isn't actually difficult to design and build high-quality machines. It's just difficult to compete price-wise with overseas manufacturing that skimps on either quality or human rights (or both). So in order to be profitable while providing top-quality equipment, an American company would have to charge more than the importers do.

And something else would need to happen, too: we American woodworkers would have to collectively put our money where our mouths are, so to speak. It's a common lament on these forums, and others, that there are no sources for hobbyist/small-shop machines made entirely in the USA. So fine; suppose there were a source. How much of a premium would you pay for their products?

Specifically: Let's suppose that there is a new American company making top-quality cabinet saws, aimed at the hobbyist/small-shop woodworker, guaranteed to last for at least one lifetime. It's not hard to imagine what a saw like that looks like: a Leeson motor, maybe; lots of cast iron; no plastic pieces; incredibly heavy and stable; impeccable quality control. And every part made in the USA, by American workers.

How much of a premium would you pay for that saw, compared to what you'd pay for one of the imports?

There are no wrong answers, and I'm absolutely not trying to start a political debate of any kind. I'm just wondering what people would actually be willing to pay. So please answer honestly. :-)

For what it's worth, my suspicion is that it IS possible for this hypothetical company to be profitable; just not AS profitable as they could be by cutting corners on the design and shipping the jobs overseas. But I might be wrong.

-Janis

[David Weaver]

I personally would only pay more for it if it was actually better.

[Brian Elfert]

Much of the woodworking stuff made overseas was designed here in the USA. I believe that most of the overseas made big iron equipment made today would easily last my lifetime and probably serve future generations too. I like to buy Made in the USA, but I won't pay stupid amounts of money for it either. If the difference was 10% it would be made in the USA in almost all cases. A new cabinet saw today for me would almost certainly be a Sawstop even though it is made overseas.

Big iron from the old days will almost never wear out as long as bearings and such are taken care of. Motors might need to be rewound or replaced eventually. My high school wood shop had Northfield Machinery big iron in it. To buy the same machines today would cost well over $100,000 most likely. I believe Northfield Machinery is still in business. The shop had a 16" table saw and a 14" radial arm saw.

[Stephen Cherry]

Does the US even have the small scale foundry capacity to produce this sort of thing at a reasonable cost?

In any case, the northfield saw starts around 15k.

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com...t-NMB-2012.pdf

One of the problems with selling technology that has not much changed in the past 50 years, is that you are competing against used machines that are pennies on the dollar, particularly once you get over the lightest weight machines.

More and more, I like the euro machines. Even my little inca table saw.

[Justin Ludwig]

Does the US even have the small scale foundry capacity to produce this sort of thing at a reasonable cost?

In any case, the northfield saw starts around 15k.

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com...t-NMB-2012.pdf

One of the problems with selling technology that has not much changed in the past 50 years, is that you are competing against used machines that are pennies on the dollar, particularly once you get over the lightest weight machines.

More and more, I like the euro machines. Even my little inca table saw.

Northfield is anything but a hobbyist/small shop tool. It takes a small city to mine the ore to put into one of their machines.

[Janis Stipins]

One of the problems with selling technology that has not much changed in the past 50 years, is that you are competing against used machines that are pennies on the dollar, particularly once you get over the lightest weight machines.

This is true, but I'm not sure it's enough in itself to make it impossible for our hypothetical business to be profitable. There are plenty of used machines, yes, but that doesn't stop Grizzly, Jet, Powermatic, etc., from doing a very brisk business in the hobbyist/small-shop market. In theory, some fraction of those sales could be going to an American manufacturer, if one existed.

Your question about the foundry is a good one. I don't know the answer.

-Janis

[John Coloccia]

I would personally pay a little more for Made in the USA because I like to support our own friends and neighbors, but what's most important to me is that it's made responsibly, either here or elsewhere. By that I mean made in a way that's not abusive to employees. Since I don't know exactly what the conditions are in a particular factory, that usually means buying from North America, Europe, and Japan when possible. I do wish we actually manufactured more in the US, though. If they can manufacture in Germany, of all places, import to the US and make a profit, surely we can be competitive and still make a profit.

[Brian Elfert]

I overestimated what Northfield Machinery tools cost. What the high school shop had would cost about $100,000 to buy today. For that $100,000 you would have quite the shop. The only big iron that wasn't Northfield Machinery was a smaller second band saw, the wood lathes, and the Timesaver wide belt sander.

Even at high school age I was surprised by the sheer size of the tools for a high school wood shop. Many professional woodworkers get by with far smaller machines.

[Sal Kurban]

Does the US even have the small scale foundry capacity to produce this sort of thing at a reasonable cost?

In any case, the northfield saw starts around 15k.

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com...t-NMB-2012.pdf

One of the problems with selling technology that has not much changed in the past 50 years, is that you are competing against used machines that are pennies on the dollar, particularly once you get over the lightest weight machines.

More and more, I like the euro machines. Even my little inca table saw.

Just spoke to the fellow at Northfield last week about the same topic... He related that Northfield is the only North American Woodworking machinery manufacturer left after General of Canada went south last year and that an important factor is tort/insurance costs. When it comes to labor costs, he said the future is brighter because the cost differential in favor of China used to be 10 to 1 but that costs are rising in China and the gap is closing fast. He cited a cost difference of about 3 at the moment.

Sal.

[Dave Lehnert]

Just spoke to the fellow at Northfield last week about the same topic... He related that Northfield is the only North American Woodworking machinery manufacturer left.

Sal.

Shopsmith tools are still made in Dayton Ohio.

[Stephen Cherry]

I don't think that we are talking bout Northfield level machines though. More like The Griz.

My feeling is that there are a few other US manufacturers, but they are specialized machines (ritter, weaver, etc.).

It seems to me that the table saw is due for a rethink, and who knows what that would look like. One thing that would make the US manufacturing more viable would be if there were added technology benefits- the brake of a sawstop, the precision of inca, the dust collection and riving of the eurosaws, plus add in a small precision slide, and a nice motor. None of this is new, but it might take a few years for it to be possible. Maybe even add in good digital indicators right out of the box.

Anyway, if it were done right, and marketed right, it could be a winner in the same way that people like up at the Lie Nielsen tool events. Just my opinion, but you would need to make a better saw to get more money.

[Ryan Mooney]

A slightly different market but a similar point might be some of the premium hand tool makers like Bridge City or Lie Nielson or Veritas (or....). They all have tools that sell for small multiples of most of the imports. They're also somewhat objectively a lot nicer or have innovative features that sell them. I think most scenarios I can see a domestic machine manufacturer competing in would want to take a similar approach and sell it as a premium tool with higher end premium features. In that scenario I could see something like perhaps a 2-3x premium, but the product has to be somewhat compelling and differentiated from the competition (this may be getting harder to do as imports become more sophisticated). A related case study would be Felder's hammer line of saws which run somewhere around 1.5-2x+ most import tools in a similar performance class (they are functionally differentiated though) and are I believe mostly sold into the hobbyist market (I think that may well be true of the market for even the 500 and 700 lines at this point which - if true - supports my point even more).

[Brian Kent]

Stephen, thank you for mentioning Lie Nielsen. Great example. Manufacturing is actually alive and well in the United States - still the largest manufacturer and exporter in the world. So this is not an impossible problem.

[Janis Stipins]

an important factor is tort/insurance costs.

I don't understand this. Was he saying that these costs are unique to Northfield and American manufacturers? And if so... why wouldn't they apply equally across the board to any machine manufacturer?

-Janis

[Janis Stipins]

I totally agree that it is not an impossible problem, and I acknowledge that in the USA we have some of the best fine hand tool manufacturing in the world. (Although we apparently stopped making decent bit braces around 1930 or so; but that's a different topic.)

It's precisely because of Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, etc., that I started thinking about this topic. Both of these manufacturers could have probably increased their profit margins by outsourcing their manufacturing overseas, cutting corners, etc., but they have not. And woodworkers remain willing to pay for their higher quality, American-made products. It makes me wonder whether a company with similar commitments to quality and ethics could succeed in the small-shop machine market.

-Janis