Belligerent sales people

[Dale Murray]

I am currently researching table saw options and decided to stop by a large tool store in the area - they carry Jet, Powermatic, Sawstop, Festool, etc (no, this is not associated with any mail order company you may be aware of) - and asked a few questions.

My questions are about quality of machine, stability, quality of cut, repeat-ability of cut, quality of service (if things break), etc.

Salesman 1 immediately tell me, aggressively and authoritatively, the only saw I want to consider is sawstop. If I buy some other saw I will not be able to sell it in a few years because it does not have a brake. I am opening myself up for liability. If I sell it I would be liable too. blah blah blah patents, blah blah people ignored him, blah blah legislation.

Mind you, HE NEVER ANSWERED MY INITIAL QUESTIONS but instead went into all the other crap.

That was irritating but I continued to talk with him and finally got him answering my questions and thats when I learned I would not get a cast trunnion unless I went to the ICS saw (an additional $1000).

Ok, so a $3000 Delta or Powermatic have cast trunnions, sawstop does not. Apple, Apple, Orange.

That was a bit annoying, I felt attacked and that my questions were not sufficiently answered. This store has three locations so I went another location the next day.

Same thing, looking at cabinet saws and considering Delta, Powermatic, and maybe sawstop. I said I know about the brake stuff and CPSC but I want to know about quality of machine, stability, quality of cut, repeat-ability of cut, quality of service (if things break), etc.

paraphrased

Salesman 2; "you dont care about these" - holding his hand up, palm out and all fingers extended? "These are not important to you?"

Me; Yes, they are important and as I stated I already know about the brake and the patents and the CPSC, etc. I also know I would have to spend an additional $1000 to get a cast trunnion from sawstop, which I am not ruling out but spending $3000 is a huge stretch for me, another grand may not happen.

S 2; your fingers are not worth $1000? You will save that on insurance premiums for your shop.

Me; Home shop, no insurance savings. Lets be honest, these are luxury item...

S 2; YOUR FINGERS ARE A LUXURY?!

Me; No, I like my fingers. I play piano. A $3000 cabinet saw in a home wood shop is a luxury item. $3000 is a significant amount of money and $4200 just may be out of the question. Lets face it, most accidents occur when people do not have any guards in place. In the past decade guards, riving knives, and dust collection have gotten a lot better.

S 2; If you buy a saw without a brake you would not be able to pass it on to your grand children because it does not have a brake.

Me; No grandchildren.S 2; You dont care about your kids hands?

Me; No children. Will not have children. Will not have grand children.

S 2 (dismissively says); Well then, get what you want. (turns his back and waives me off).



This is seriously obnoxious behavior from two separate sales people in two locations. In both cases neither actually addressed the questions I presented.

Seems Sawstop and Festool endorsers are hard core.
Last year I asked a salesperson at a different store about cordless drills.

Again, paraphrased:
Them: Festool.
Me: Way expensive.
Them: You dont care about high quality, has a great warranty?
Me: Some people cannot afford a Cadillac.
Them: This is not a Cadillac.
Me: In the drill world it is. Its $100 more than anything else I am aware of.

For the record I bought the Dewalt LI-ion brushless drill/driver set. Quite happy. And those two tools cost less than a single festool. Also, did not buy from that retailer.

I do not deny sawstop is a very interesting and compelling tool and Festool seem to be top notch but not everyone can afford them. If this is only one saw to consider then why stock Jet and Powermatic? If there is only one drill to consider then why stock Dewalt or Milwaukee or Makita?

Try selling the saw based on quality and engineering and not based on fear; fingers, childrens fingers, liability, ability to sell it in the future.

[Yonak Hawkins]

That was a fun story, Dale, and irresistable philosophy. Thanks for sharing it.

[Art Mann]

You have more patience than I do. The moment a salesman tries to take over the conversation and sell me something through fear or high pressure, I simply walk out the door. Another annoying situation is where the salesman tries to impress me with his product knowledge. I almost always thoroughly research high dollar items so that I already know a great deal about the product before I go in to look. I have caught salesmen who didn't know their product or just made stuff up several times. That is another reason for leaving without further discussion.

[Jerry Olexa]

You had a bad experience.. A table saw purchase is personal and what YOU want...not the salesman....Rise above it and make your own decision at your convenience..

[Rich Riddle]

Many of us go through the extremely opinionated sales folks who discuss table saws. Last year at a Woodworking show the Sawstop salesman was telling people he knew three friends who were woodworkers who cut their hands and then fell forward on the blades and were killed as a result. I asked their names. He said that was confidential. Yeah.

I looked at many saws including the Sawstop and ended up with a Hammer sliding table saw. Works great but takes a bit of adjusting to get used to using it. It's much safer for many cuts. If you wait for their sale prices, it will likely be in the range you are considering. Both Jet and Powermatic just went off sale a couple of days ago, so if you're headed in that direction, too bad you didn't look that way when the sale was happening.

We all have budgets and needs and do a needs/cost analysis. Some folks don't understand that.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I just turn around and make the purchase from someone else or somewhere else. This past summer I purchased a used car. I wanted and told the salesman up front "I am looking for a car with a standard transmission, cruise control, and not turbo charged. Preferably 4 door. I'm looking to complete the purchase by the end of June." The ones that had such a thing on the lot were great. The ones that could get one were OK. The ones that did not have and could not get were miserable. Sometimes I was afraid they were going to tackle me as I tried to leave. As for the last sentence, I still get phone calls if I'm looking for a car...6 months after the fact.

IIRC, Sawstop makes 3 saws, ICS, PCS, and contractor. Correct? Only the ICS has cast iron works? The PCS is aluminum?

[Brian Tymchak]

Both salesmen said you wouldn't be able to sell or pass the saw on because it doesn't have a brake? Any truth in that or was just more fear-mongering? Seems hard to believe that would be possible.

[Jerry Olexa]

Forgot to mention: There is a wealth of info on internet...Start with Google and conduct your own research..You then can be objective when looking at several sources and not influenced by an opinionated salesperson with his own personal motives...G'luck ..

[Mike Henderson]

Both salesmen said you wouldn't be able to sell or pass the saw on because it doesn't have a brake? Any truth in that or was just more fear-mongering? Seems hard to believe that would be possible.

Salespeople say all kinds of ridiculous things. In all markets. Even when the buyer is an expert they still say dumb, ridiculous things. I guess they think people will believe anything.

Mike

[Duane Meadows]

Wouldn't say it can't happen. It did happen with cribs that have adjustable(not bolted) sides!

[Dale Murray]

@ Jerry Olexa and Art Mann,
I am trying to make my own decision at my convenience but sometimes research requires seeing, touching, and asking about a product. It is darn right irritating when someone has an agenda that derails this process.



@ Anthony Whitesell,
It has been 25 years since I did anything in sales. Back then if I had a customer who did not already have an idea what equipment they wanted or a budget in mind I would show them the entry level item then the very top of the line item - they can see the extremes. This would usually inform them enough that I could guide them to the right product for their need. Same should be said for tools or other items.

I own bicycles that cost $3000 but if my neighbor asked me for advice on a bike I am not going to tell them they need to spend a minimum of $550. Maybe they only need a $200 bike.

The 3hp PCS (Professional Cabinet Saw) ranges from $2729-2999. Its in the area of the Unisaw and PM2000 and does not have a cast trunnion and is also about 200lbs lighter than those saws. The ICS (Industrial Cabinet Saw) does have a cast trunnion and is quite stout, it also starts at $3899 for the 3hp version. The mobile base for the PCS is $199, the ICS is $299.

A quick search and I find the 3hp PM2000 with integrated mobile base is $2959.



@ Brian Tymchak,
I think that is fear mongering. I could sell a used car without airbags, anti-lock brakes, or even seat belts if it is old enough and that was not standard equipment. My fathers 39 Buick has none of that stuff and he could sell it tomorrow if he wanted to.



Another question I now have, if its true the Sawstop tech would have only added $50-100 to the cost of a saw then why are their saws so much more expensive than comparable models? Fear tax?

[Dale Murray]

Both Jet and Powermatic just went off sale a couple of days ago, so if you're headed in that direction, too bad you didn't look that way when the sale was happening.

I am four to six months out from purchasing a saw, just doing leg work now.

[johnny means]

These are not the saws you're looking for.

[Anthony Whitesell]

@ Jerry Olexa and Art Mann,
Another question I now have, if its true the Sawstop tech would have only added $50-100 to the cost of a saw then why are their saws so much more expensive than comparable models? Fear tax?

That is the question. If you were to take away the brake on the Sawstop, do you believe the brake-less Sawstop is equal to the PM 2000 or Jet saw? If so, then the price difference is the cost of the brake system. The brake system must add at least that much ($50-100) to the price of the machine just in parts and labor. Heck the brake cartridge retails for $70 alone. Then you have to factor in the amortization of the cost of the initial design. Personally, I would estimate the systems parts and labor to add at least $200 to the cost of the machine and the remainder is NRE (non-recurring engineering). With that said, adding $200 to a $200 table saw is a lot of money (referring to the supposed push back of the saw manufacturer's regarding the increased cost and price if the brake system is mandated carte blanche).

[Mike Henderson]

That is the question. If you were to take away the brake on the Sawstop, do you believe the brake-less Sawstop is equal to the PM 2000 or Jet saw? If so, then the price difference is the cost of the brake system. The brake system must add at least that much ($50-100) to the price of the machine just in parts and labor. Heck the brake cartridge retails for $70 alone. Then you have to factor in the amortization of the cost of the initial design. Personally, I would estimate the systems parts and labor to add at least $200 to the cost of the machine and the remainder is NRE (non-recurring engineering). With that said, adding $200 to a $200 table saw is a lot of money (referring to the supposed push back of the saw manufacturer's regarding the increased cost and price if the brake system is mandated carte blanche).

The price of a product is not directly related to the cost of producing it. The price is what the company can get for it.

Mike