Help with Piano finish and color filling

[Don Gares]

Okay, I haven't been around this forum since about 2011 but I still own a laser. Almost all of the engraving that I have been doing is on wine glasses and beer mugs with my rotary attachment. Now I am getting requests to engrave various objects that have a piano finish and of course they need to be color filled. Most seem to be of Rosewood finish with a gold color fill. I have done a few wine bottle boxes for personal gifts but now I need to know how to do it CORRECTLY.

If one or more of you could take me through the whole process it would be greatly appreciated. I mean, what do I mask with, if anything? What type/brand of color fill is the best? Power and speed estimate? I have found very limited notes on the wine bottle boxes that I have done for personal gifts and all that they say are "used green tape, speed 45, power 100, 600 dpi, and filled with Laser Bits Pro Color Fill. These notes are three years old so they really don't mean much to me now. Actually, I don't remember picking out all of the little pieces of tape that would have been left in certain letters of the text so I am back to square one.

I know if is asking a lot, but again, if one of more of you could walk me through the complete process it would be greatly appreciated. And yes, I have done some searches but I need the process all in one ball of wax.

Cheers,

Don

[Ross Moshinsky]

First, you don't HAVE to engrave into the rosewood products. You can put a plate on them. People have done this for years and it will never stop. We do it all the time. It's more cost effective and it's much lower risk.

Second, the right way to do it is not all that complicated.

1. Mask the product. I've used a few different products but the JDS transfer style paper works just fine.
2. Engrave the product. Get some depth into the wood. I find somewhere around .015-.02" works well (this is the thickness of a typical piece of aluminum/brass/steel).
3. Spray a coat of sealer. This keeps the paint from absorbing too much into the wood and spreading. We use the Shellac brand.
4. Spray 3-4 light coats of gold paint. I like the stuff they have from Ace Hardware. Do not do heavy coats. You can always go back and add more paint. Put too much down and you'll soak the masking and cause yourself issues.

[Don Gares]

First, you don't HAVE to engrave into the rosewood products. You can put a plate on them. People have done this for years and it will never stop. We do it all the time. It's more cost effective and it's much lower risk.

Second, the right way to do it is not all that complicated.

1. Mask the product. I've used a few different products but the JDS transfer style paper works just fine.
2. Engrave the product. Get some depth into the wood. I find somewhere around .015-.02" works well (this is the thickness of a typical piece of aluminum/brass/steel).
3. Spray a coat of sealer. This keeps the paint from absorbing too much into the wood and spreading. We use the Shellac brand.
4. Spray 3-4 light coats of gold paint. I like the stuff they have from Ace Hardware. Do not do heavy coats. You can always go back and add more paint. Put too much down and you'll soak the masking and cause yourself issues.

Ross, that is exactly the type of info I am looking for. Now hopefully some more opinions from others. I realize that I could use a plate but this particular group of individuals definitely do not want it done that way. What about picking all those little pieces of transfer paper off, is that a hassle?
Thanks,
Don

[Scott Shepherd]

What about picking all those little pieces of transfer paper off, is that a hassle?
Thanks,
Don

It's not as bad as you'd think it would be. Goes really quickly once you get it figured out.

I agree with Ross' technique. The key, which he pointed out, and needs to be repeated is that you want light coats. In my opinion, you want the paint to be almost dry to the touch instantly. If you look at the paper tape you used to mask it and you see a gloss on it, it's a wet edge and you have too much paint and you've probably just had paint bleed through. The key in application is to watch the paper tape and use that as the judge on when you can stop painting. It goes from light dusting to solid color, flat finish, to a high gloss look. If you hit the high gloss on the paper, you're in trouble. Keep the paint just below that level and you'll be good.

Just my opinion.

[Joe Hillmann]

Since it is a nice gloss finish I would just engrave the piece with no mask, go fairly deep, maybe 1/16 or so then wipe in gold acrylic paint. The acrylic paint I like the best comes in small 4 ounce bottles from Wallmart and is the apple barrel brand, you can find it in the craft section. When you wipe it in try and fill the engraving as much as possible but also try to wipe off as much as you can from the engraved surface. Let it dry for and hour or so then wipe off the excess with a Mr. Clean Magic eraser.

Rosse's method would also work but I think it would run a higher chance of having the paint bleed through the wood grain. And to remove the masking you can just remove the big pieces then rub your fingers over the small pieces and most of them will roll right off and you will only have to pick off a few items.

Edit: I forgot to add only use my method if your engraving area is mostly narrow lines such as in lettering. If you do any type of images with large engraved areas use Ross' method

[Don Gares]

Since it is a nice gloss finish I would just engrave the piece with no mask, go fairly deep, maybe 1/16 or so then wipe in gold acrylic paint. The acrylic paint I like the best comes in small 4 ounce bottles from Wallmart and is the apple barrel brand, you can find it in the craft section. When you wipe it in try and fill the engraving as much as possible but also try to wipe off as much as you can from the engraved surface. Let it dry for and hour or so then wipe off the excess with a Mr. Clean Magic eraser.

Rosse's method would also work but I think it would run a higher chance of having the paint bleed through the wood grain. And to remove the masking you can just remove the big pieces then rub your fingers over the small pieces and most of them will roll right off and you will only have to pick off a few items.

Edit: I forgot to add only use my method if your engraving area is mostly narrow lines such as in lettering. If you do any type of images with large engraved areas use Ross' method

Okay, all three of you have mentioned paint (although different kinds) for the fill but what about the "Rub and Buff" that I have read so much about? Also, what about the "Laser Bits Pro Color Fill" that I already have? Joe, you mentioned that you would not mask but if for some unknown reason you were forced to what masking product would you use?
Don (overwhelmed at the response)

[Joe Hillmann]

Okay, all three of you have mentioned paint (although different kinds) for the fill but what about the "Rub and Buff" that I have read so much about? Also, what about the "Laser Bits Pro Color Fill" that I already have? Joe, you mentioned that you would not mask but if for some unknown reason you were forced to what masking product would you use?
Don (overwhelmed at the response)

If the area was less then 2 inches wide I would use blue painter tape, If I was out of that I would use white masking tape. If it was larger than two inches I would use transfer tape.

[Don Gares]

If the area was less then 2 inches wide I would use blue painter tape, If I was out of that I would use white masking tape. If it was larger than two inches I would use transfer tape.

Joe, I really hate to sound really dumb but is what you refer to as "transfer tape" the same thing as "JDS Masking Tape for Lasering" as shown at the bottom of page 187 of their 2013 big catalog? I noticed that it can only be purchased in case lots. :-(
Don

[Scott Shepherd]

Skip the rub-n-buff. The right paint and you'll be happy. I actually gave up on the type Joe seems to have good luck with and went to a craft store and bought tubes of acrylic paint. It's like you'd paint a painting with. Comes in what looks like a toothpaste tube, it's as thick as toothpaste. Love that stuff. Spread it in with a business card, let me dry and you're all good.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Ross, that is exactly the type of info I am looking for. Now hopefully some more opinions from others. I realize that I could use a plate but this particular group of individuals definitely do not want it done that way. What about picking all those little pieces of transfer paper off, is that a hassle?
Thanks,
Don

I just rub them off with my thumb. Essentially no risk of scratching and I just have to clean the board off after with Pledge after done.

I personally don't care for Joe's method. I find keeping the paint in the engraved area problematic. I always end up pulling the paint out of the engraved areas. It's a technique I wish I did better and is commonly used in the industry, but it's a bit tricky to get right. Joe does make a good point that filling thin lines can be tricky. I'll rotate the piece 90 degrees to help get into those letters but every once in a while, the paint doesn't get in a spot.

I used to have some issues with paint fill but the trick really is laying down the mask well (really rub it in well so it adheres), spray a sealer, and do light coats of paint. With the stuff from Ace Hardware I can literally do a light coat, come back 5 minutes later, lay down another coat, and repeat the process until I'm happy. Normally it's about 3-5 of those coats.

[Mike Null]

I am not a fan of Rub n Buff and prefer a better quality acrylic paint that I buy at Hobby Lobby called precious metals. A small jar is $5 and you brush it on.

If I were doing a larger area I would use a spray.

I would not engrave as deeply as has been suggested by others as the coating on piano finish materials is quite thick and engraving to .010 or .015" will not penetrate the wood thus no need to worry about color bleeding into the wood.

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[Don Gares]

I just rub them off with my thumb. Essentially no risk of scratching and I just have to clean the board off after with Pledge after done.

I personally don't care for Joe's method. I find keeping the paint in the engraved area problematic. I always end up pulling the paint out of the engraved areas. It's a technique I wish I did better and is commonly used in the industry, but it's a bit tricky to get right. Joe does make a good point that filling thin lines can be tricky. I'll rotate the piece 90 degrees to help get into those letters but every once in a while, the paint doesn't get in a spot.

I used to have some issues with paint fill but the trick really is laying down the mask well (really rub it in well so it adheres), spray a sealer, and do light coats of paint. With the stuff from Ace Hardware I can literally do a light coat, come back 5 minutes later, lay down another coat, and repeat the process until I'm happy. Normally it's about 3-5 of those coats.

Ross, in your very first reply you referenced "JDS transfer style paper". Can you be more specific or even direct me to that product in JDS's catalog? If you are referring to "JDS Masking Tape for Lasering" as shown in their catalog, is this quite similar to anything that can be purchased in less than case lots?
Thanks,
Don

[Mike Null]

I use paper transfer tape that I get from a sign supplier. I apply it with a squeegee.

[Joe Hillmann]

Joe, I really hate to sound really dumb but is what you refer to as "transfer tape" the same thing as "JDS Masking Tape for Lasering" as shown at the bottom of page 187 of their 2013 big catalog? I noticed that it can only be purchased in case lots. :-(
Don

Not a dumb question at all, I learned about transfer tape here on sawmill creek as well. Here is a link to a question I had when trying to figure out what I was looking for. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...=transfer+tape

I doubt it is the same thing as JDS Masking tape but for color filling either would work, although the JDS Masking tape may be stickier than transfer tape which is a plus on some items and not so good on other items.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Ross, in your very first reply you referenced "JDS transfer style paper". Can you be more specific or even direct me to that product in JDS's catalog? If you are referring to "JDS Masking Tape for Lasering" as shown in their catalog, is this quite similar to anything that can be purchased in less than case lots?
Thanks,
Don

H109. Case quantity is 1 pc. I believe the tape JDS sells is basically 6" transfer tape that you can get from a sign supply store but it hasn't been worth it for me to go hunting for a difference source.