David Savage on Lie-Nielsen chisels

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree with mike. Paul sellers doesn't strike me as arrogant, just to the point. I think he does not want to impose a lot of spending on his audience, which is one of the reasons so people take his views as being cheap/arrogant.

Being constantly in search of the latest/greatest is not always a nessecary thing.

so, relax it's just one persons opinion.

[David Weaver]

I don't necessarily see him as being cheap at all. I think he'd probably like to see people spending money on his courses, at his retreat/ww school, on his DVDs, etc - instead of on tools.

We'll always get some sort of bias. Personally, I'm biased in the sense that I think most people will learn more at their bench than they will watching classes, unless there's something really specific you need to know (carving specific elements, etc).

Some folks have DVDs published by LN, though I have to admit that there's not a lot of pure sales push in those videos.

Tommy mac is another example - I don't know if I could still find it, but there was a spot where he was really pushing the made in china wood river chisels as super high end save it for special work type tools. I really liked tommy mac's original videos, but even at that, I understand he was making them hoping to get picked up for a TV show, so the original sense of "oh, here's this guy who just loves making videos so we can see them, etc", they were excellent videos, I thought, but the level of effort that went into those videos was to get a show.

[Jim Matthews]

The ALDI chisels look very much like the Narex chisels used at the class I attended. They sharpen quickly and hone to a keen edge. I would submit that outfitting an introductory course with very expensive tools would add to costs.

Lower costs might attract a broader student body, including those with a limited budget.

It's my contention that modern steel making has produced very high quality at ever lower prices. If the ALDI chisels are in fact the same steel as the Narex chisels, they're a smoking bargain. That takes nothing away from makers of the finest tools - it's merely an invitation to those with an interest to test their skills without a huge outlay of cash.

I don't think that this demonstration was intended to do anything more than to show how good results can be had with careful handling of basic materials.

In the New Legacy school, there was a full array of modern hand tools. I never heard disparaging discussions of modern tool makers. Lumping Mr. Sellers in with Mr. Savage is an unfair comparison.

[Derek Cohen]

In the past, woodworkers learned their trade in a formal apprenticeship under the tutelage of experienced hands and eyes, learning skills by practice, following rules until they became second nature - where topics such as sharpening were much the same as breathing; one did not need to discuss this, one just did it and moved on.

Today we have a great many amateurs (like myself) who became involved with woodworking and entered this via self-education: books, magazines and, increasingly, forums and videos, made by both professionals and amateurs. The latter area is dominating increasingly, and there appears to be enough of an audience to support all at this stage. Indications are that sales of magazines (especially) and books are falling away, and being replaced with visual media. Perhaps this reflects a need for more instant enlightenment, or the advantage of the visual demonstration, or a bit of both. It is in amateur forums such as this, along with all the others, where beliefs (such as what is required for a sharp edge) are created, and then fostered until they become lore. Newbies entering the hobby cannot tell good from bad advice.

The professional educator needs to market themselves in order to sell their product. What we see are different methods, personalities, areas of expertise, etc. coming into play. Some educators have been around a long time and trusted, and some are just entering the game and need to prove themselves. Some appear to seek to stand out from the pack by being provocative, some appeal to the entry level woodworker, some hard sell success, and others offer insightful information to develop advanced skillsets. Learn to discriminate what is a sales pitch and what is not.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Ashton]

I do see his point, sharp vs edge retention. It all depends on what kind of work the craftsman does and what materials are used. I personally prefer a tool steel that allows me to get the sharpest edge that I can attain, touching the edge up is indeed quick. This being said it can be a drag when you are to a fro between the bench and sharpening.

Even with metal working I prefer to use HSS cutters over carbide because of the sharpness of the edge attainable and the resulting finish. I resort to carbide cutters for machining of harder and more abrasive materials only.

Two faces of the cutting edge coin.

I agree with you there. Carbon steel or O1 can be sharpened to a degree that it feels like the tool could pull itself through the wood it's so sharp, even against the grain - I prefer that. I've made a lot of chisels and such over the decades and I tend to harden the O1 a bit more than is considered the best… I like that the characteristics of it allow me get it so sharp that I feel like I could pare a hair. It won't last as long and you need to be careful not to chip the edge but it's what I like… Any A2 I've had just doesn't get to a point where it feels like it will pull itself though the wood. To each their own. What's great is we have choice.

Part of my living was made by turning cremation urns and I could get 2 or 3 urns out of a single carbide sharpening but it was rough. The tips would be sticky sharp for about 10 seconds but after that they maintained a useable edge for a very long time but they left a fairly rough surface. The HSS bits wouldn't even last a single urn but the edge was sticky sharp for longer which allowed for a better finish and effort expended was much less and the finish much better when they were sharp.

[Chris Griggs]

we're agreed to blame David Charlesworth for the Stamp Act of the mid 17th century.

Yeah, that's totally DC's fault. What a jerk!

[Chris Parks]

I want to continue on Derek's theme for a bit. During his apprenticeship the student had the visual advantage of standing next to a tradesman and watching, afterwards being corrected and most probably shown again. Video is the closest most can come to this apart from attending a seminar/tutorial and then it is generally for a very limited time though some fortunate souls may attend a college/school for more extensive courses. YouTube and video are the closest thing we have that demonstrate in a visual way those skills that the apprentice learned during his years with the tradesman. Books while good cannot have the same tutorial value.

[Hilton Ralphs]

WHOA, dude, I thought the only fighters were the Canadiens . . . .

Man, so many jokes only a Canadian would get.....

fighting words for most of us Canadians.

I had to look it up but I now get the joke.

[Chris Hachet]

...knowledge is good, but at some point you just need to get out into the shop and find things that work your you. Lately, I have been working mostly in quarter sawn white oak. I have been using Lie Nielson chisels and Japanese chisels, both of which hone up nice enough on diamond stones to do anything I want, even if I use hickory as a secondary wood. Methinks the original review is pretty much "much ado about nothing."

[Jim Foster]

I suspect the apprentices learned how to sharpen because it's the job they got until they were experts, and then some, and then maybe some more. Also, they probably had to do the rough planing so the lead craftsmen could focus on finish work. That way, the basics were literally ground into the apprentices via getting the "crap" jobs until they were ready to move up to more demanding skills.

Being self taught (poorly I might add) in the 80's and 90's or marketed to by magazines was a frustrating path, I was taught that western handsaws did not work and you needed to buy Japanese hand saws, and that routers were critical in a home shop. (I somehow got the feeling you really needed two or three routers of varying sizes in every shop) What seems to stick the most is being instilled with the need to have a big shop where you could have lots of power equipment, like on the New Yankee Workshop. The articles on the guys using handtools and small shops seemed very esoteric and far from the mainstream back then. I am probably also a product of my fathers shop efforts. He got a shop full of equipment from a friends grandfather that passed away. It included a tablesaw, jointer, electric drill and beltsander, along with a chest full of handplanes, chisels, screwdrivers and other hand tools. The power tools and screwdrivers got used, everything else was eventually removed from the chest of drawers to make room for other tools. The chisels were used to open cans, the handplanes were treated as oddities from a day gone by. (I'm pretty sure he had some nice Stanley 750s and the handplanes included several bullnose type planes, several block planes and the normal three sizes for taking wood from rough to finish.) Somehow the chisels and handplanes disappeared during my early childhood. I do however still have his saw-blade setting tool

With the Internet and the free flow of information provided, today is a I think it's a wonderful time to pick up woodworking as a hobby because you can see how people sharpen blades, ask questions and pick a path for yourself and select tools much more easily than you could 20 and 30 years ago.

In the past, woodworkers learned their trade in a formal apprenticeship under the tutelage of experienced hands and eyes, learning skills by practice, following rules until they became second nature - where topics such as sharpening were much the same as breathing; one did not need to discuss this, one just did it and moved on.

Today we have a great many amateurs (like myself) who became involved with woodworking and entered this via self-education: books, magazines and, increasingly, forums and videos, made by both professionals and amateurs. The latter area is dominating increasingly, and there appears to be enough of an audience to support all at this stage. Indications are that sales of magazines (especially) and books are falling away, and being replaced with visual media. Perhaps this reflects a need for more instant enlightenment, or the advantage of the visual demonstration, or a bit of both. It is in amateur forums such as this, along with all the others, where beliefs (such as what is required for a sharp edge) are created, and then fostered until they become lore. Newbies entering the hobby cannot tell good from bad advice.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

All of the work I have ever posted here,including the latest guitar,were made with my old 1965ish set of Marples chisels. I can't recommend the new ones as I don't know if they are the same quality,or gone softer.

[David Weaver]

gone softer.

Smart money would be on that. I had a 1980s set of english made blue chips and they were pretty soft. One of the five was much softer than the others, too, something like saw temper.

[Zach Dillinger]

All of the work I have ever posted here,including the latest guitar,were made with my old 1965ish set of Marples chisels. I can't recommend the new ones as I don't know if they are the same quality,or gone softer.

This should be shouted from the mountaintops

[paul cottingham]

I had to look it up but I now get the joke.

Sorry to be so obtuse. Sometimes I can't help myself. (But I probably should.)

[Tom Blank]

Back to the OP's original topic, I have the same chisel review as in the OP's quote in an e-mail from Mr Savage on 12 April 2012 and again in another e-mail on 5 November 2012. Both e-mail had additional info/opinions other than the paragraphs posted above. Perhaps that helps with the time line question someone asked earlier.

In Mr Savage's review, seems he was good with the design, quality, and workmanship of the LN chisels, he simply does not like A2 steel. He has expressed that opinion on other occasions. To date I have not seen any reviews by him of other chisels.

Tom