What to buy, what to buy?

[Robert Silvers]

I don't have my machine yet - so I could be wrong. It could end up a terrible waste of money and never work well. So if that happens, you will be correct.

But at this point with my optimism, and experience with the Chinese (but not Chinese lasers specifically), if I were concerned about downtime I would just buy a spare laser tube, power supply, motherboard, mirrors, and lenses. If that was not adequate, I could buy two or more machines. That all being said, if I were a company of a certain size and not a home user, I would buy the Epilog. Can't get fired for buying an Epilog (IBM). You can get fired for buying a Chinese laser that does not end up working.

As for billing hours - I figured it would be too hard to make money with the laser. It would be great if I could bill hours - but that seems like a lot of work quoting people and having most of them not follow through with projects. If there is some low-hanging fruit way to earn money with it, other than selling products made on it (which is obvious), that would be great.

And if I am wrong, I won't hide it - I will come back and report a bad experience.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hiya Scott,

1) What is the life span of the machine? If a $5,800 machine last 1 year and the Epilog lasts 8 years, then you've spent more on the Chinese machine.

The first 6800 series HX laser I purchased is now 5 years old and still running fine, it is however on it's 3rd 40 watt tube (@£175 per tube)

2) What's the production time difference? If a $5,800 machine runs at 70% of what the Epilog does, then, over a relatively short time, if your machine is kept running 6 hours a day (the Chinese machine), the Epilog can do that same work in 21 hours. So that's 9 hours per week less time. Multiply that times 52 weeks and that's 468 billable hours more, let's say, at $60 per hour. That's $28,000 more you made on the Epilog doing the same work. So the $28,000 plus the $5,800 would get you at about $34,000. That's IF you have 30 hours work. What if you have 40 hours? 50 hours? 5 hours?

Agreed, that's why in time critical applications 2 machines are better than one.

2 x $5,800 @ 70% efficiency
Total production time 6 hours per day (30 hrs per week)
The Epilog will have to run for 42 hours to produce the same workflow as 2 cheap machines do in 30 hours.
That's 624 billable hours per year (@$60 an hour that's $37,440) add on the $28,000 cost of the machine that's $65,440 peak dollars in the first year. Deduct the $11,600 cost of the Chinese machines $53,840 more I'm going to have to profit by (not turn over "Profit")

3) What's the maintenance cost? How much down time do you have in a year? Count those as lost hours and multiply them by $60 per hour as well. That's lost revenue.

In the last 5 years of using Chinese machines I have lost under 12 hours per year per machine in maintenance time due to faults, such as changing lens's, mirrors or tubes.

Now, and I imagine some have stopped reading this by now and it'll become evident by some responses, that might all be PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE to you and your use for your laser. However, just because it's acceptable in your use, doesn't mean it's acceptable for my business requirements. I think we make most of our money off responding quickly when other's can't. That means our lasers are mission critical. I don't have the time or the ability to troubleshoot electronics issues. To me, any time I spend working on a machine is time and money lost. To other's, they LOVE that stuff. They love taking the covers off and pulling out a meter and probing around. That's great too. I have no problems with that.

The huge difference for me is where I get the machines from, I buy all my Chinese lasers from a UK based supplier who ensures they are all conforming to the required safety legalities, they are all tested and checked for quality before I get them and I have 7 day a week support for want of a phonecall or email. That costs me about 25% more than I can buy the machines for direct but that for me is good value.

Direct imports are something I have never been a supporter of, I've seen too many machines come in faulty, legally questionable, or just outright knackered.

damage.jpg

If you import direct and the above turns up...who pays?

The manufacturer? Nope it was fine when they shipped it
The loader? nope they always handle stuff with care
The transporter shipping company? nope, they "have been doing this 40 years mate" and have never damaged anything
Customs & Excise? Nope, her Majesties Officials never make mistakes
The delivery company? Heh prove it, you signed for it.

There are some fantastic Chinese companies who will do everything they can to help you, there are also some truly dire ones that will wash their hands the moment you have any problems. While I'm sure there are also Western suppliers who are hopeless it is far easy to bring action against a company in your own country than trying to litigate across an international border.

On direct imports I have indeed seen a LOT of people have problems, I'm not a big believer in buying shed loads of spares for something that should work out of the box just "in case" it goes wrong.

Just last week I purchased a ZX1850 tube from my supplier in the UK, he dropped by,fitted it tested it and had a coffee and a chat. Job done, back to work. HOWEVER when he initially arrived and unpacked the first tube and removed the + electrode cover cap the end of the tube cracked off (that's a $3000 tube as well) so had that been imported I'd now be sat here wondering if it was going to get replaced or what trouble I would now be having with a machine down and a broken tube. Because I purchased in-country he simply got another tube from the vehicle and fitted that, time lost to tube fault? 90 seconds.
The tube for whatever reason didn't survive a 300 mile trip so the chances of a 1.9 meter long precision piece of glass surviving a 6,000 mile trip probably aren't great.

While I'm a supporter of Chinese machines I wouldn't buy one for business use directly from China.The risk over benefit is simply too high for me.If it's for a hobby or a sideline to a day job ..great..or even as a third or forth machine to toy with but past that in-country support for any serious business is essential in my own situation.

best wishes

Dave

[Robert Silvers]

The huge difference for me is where I get the machines from, I buy all my Chinese lasers from a UK based supplier who ensures they are all conforming to the required safety legalities, they are all tested and checked for quality before I get them and I have 7 day a week support for want of a phonecall or email. That costs me about 25% more than I can buy the machines for direct but that for me is good value.

Direct imports are something I have never been a supporter of, I've seen too many machines come in faulty, legally questionable, or just outright knackered.

If you import direct and the above turns up...who pays?

There are some fantastic Chinese companies who will do everything they can to help you, there are also some truly dire ones that will wash their hands the moment you have any problems. While I'm sure there are also Western suppliers who are hopeless it is far easy to bring action against a company in your own country than trying to litigate across an international border.

On direct imports I have indeed seen a LOT of people have problems, I'm not a big believer in buying shed loads of spares for something that should work out of the box just "in case" it goes wrong.

While I'm a supporter of Chinese machines I wouldn't buy one for business use directly from China.The risk over benefit is simply too high for me.If it's for a hobby or a sideline to a day job ..great..or even as a third or forth machine to toy with but past that in-country support for any serious business is essential in my own situation.

My $5800 machine would be between $10,000 and $16,000 if I bought it from a US importer, depending on which one.

I imported a lathe directly. It had a problem, and they air-shipped me the parts and paid for a machine-repair company in my area to come and install it. I know that was above and beyond and not saying that is normal.

[Scott Shepherd]

And if I am wrong, I won't hide it - I will come back and report a bad experience.

I don't think anyone is saying you are wrong for buying a Chinese machine. Certainly not anyone in this thread that I have seen.

Dave, I tell you what, I mentioned in an earlier thread that I had run 50,000 of an item. I was way off. I've run no less than 150,000 of one item for a customer. It's a 3 point, lower case font. I'll put my machines head to head with 1 or 5 Chinese machines and let's see who keeps the job.

Chinese machines have their issues, you've been very vocal on that as well. There are things they don't do well. We're a job shop, we see all sorts of things. Last thing I want, in our business, it to turn down work because of quality limitations of our lasers.

If it were as simple as your math example, then there would be no Epilog, Universal, Trotec, GCC, or anyone else, other than Chinese machines. My point was simply that it's not as simple as comparing purchase prices.

I also know that when our lasers are running, 1 person can't keep up with 2 machines, much less 5 machines. So having 5 machines, running the type of work we do, would require hiring more people.

I don't care what you own or buy. My point that I keep repeating is that what's right for you might not be right for me, what's right for you, might not be right for you. There is no "one size fits all" in the market.

I also think you'd have to admit, your laser knowledge and skill is at the top tier, and that's a LONG LONG way from 99.9% of the people that buys lasers.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Yea, I agree Rob, I've seen some pretty top heavy prices from US suppliers for what amounts to cheap machines bought direct

For anything other than business use I'd say import all the way (at absolute worst you loose machine cost) but for business at worst case I could loose 3X the machine cost in the first month trying to get it fixed. I love Chinese machines but sadly like most of the guys that have posted I really don't want to throw earnings away if things go wrong on an import.

That is of course just me though, different models fit different people.

cheers

Dave

[Dave Sheldrake]

There is no "one size fits all" in the market.

Bang on Scott the manufacturer that can fit that bill will make a LOT of money like you though, I don't think it's going to happen any time soon.

That's the main reason I run a rather expensive Mitsubishi to cut metal when there are cheap Chinese alternatives, even the thought of running potentially explosive gasses through something made to a price and not a standard kinda scares me silly

cheers

Dave

[Robert Silvers]

If it were as simple as your math example, then there would be no Epilog, Universal, Trotec, GCC, or anyone else, other than Chinese machines. My point was simply that it's not as simple as comparing purchase prices.

Clearly tons of companies have to minimize downtime and it is worth the price difference. I would like to think that no one is arguing that a medium or large company should buy a $5,000 Chinese laser. On the other hand, there is no way I am buying a $42,000 laser for my home without a clean plan to have it make a profit, and I have no clear plan. For sure I am taking on risk, but losing $5,800 is much lower risk to me than a $42,000 machine that is certain to work, but where I may never find a way to have it earn itself back.

[George M. Perzel]

Here we go again-same old argument without a valid premise. Chinese machines are cheaper- then they must be slower and break more often.
Scott, lets look at your statements and numbers:
1. What is the lifespan of the machine? Who knows? It's not like the whole thing crumbles to dust and has to be replaced. From actual experience my almost 10 year old GCC Mercury has had the tube replaced twice, once under warranty and once for $3500. X-axis motor once, EProms once, two fans, two auto focus cables (cheap ribbons), one power supply ($650), a set of track rollers, and at least three focus probes. It also had the mainboard replaced ($970) but can't count that as it was due to a lightning strike that came in thru the cable TV/Phone?Internet and wiped out two tv's, the GCC, the Shenhui, two cable dvr's, a speaker system, a router, modem, and harddrive. A real mess. All in all,though, not bad for a ten year old ownership.
The Shenhui? Now two years old. Other than the lightning strike (took out the mainboard, but had a spare -$300, so was back running on that in 1 hour while GCC took three days trying to get the right version of the mainboard) the only problems have been:
A.Bad water sensor-had the Shenhui tech on Skype within 10 minutes of calling who told me how to bypass the sensor and then clean it-have two sensors so no safety issues.
B. Replaced one tube-by mistake-was getting double print which turned out to be loose lens-tube was OK.

Bottom line on lifecycle costs. Who knows? I do know that the Shenhui is much more modular as can be upgraded easily with new tubes, mainboards, etc at a reasonable cost. Never, in ten years , did I get anything from GCC that offered any upgrade other than a new driver. Want something better and faster?-buy a new machine.PLEASE NOTE: I am not slamming the mainstream machines as I do not know what upgrades to existing machines is offered by Epilog, Universal, Trotec and others-someone with more knowledge can comment.


2. Now lets talk about production costs. Let's accept your assumption that the Chinese machine operates at 70% the speed of the Epilog. However, I have a much larger bed and TWO tubes so I can achieve 140% of the Epilog output. So in a 6 hour, 5 day week, I can equal the Epilog 30 hour production in 21 hours.So that's 9 hours per week less time. Multiply that times 52 weeks and that's 468 billable hours more, let's say, at $60 per hour. That's $28,000 more I made versus the Epilog doing the same work. That's IF you have 30 hours work. What if you have 40 hours? 50 hours? 5 hours? Oh, I know, you are going to say that's not fair, but they are your numbers.

3. What's the maintenance cost? Somehow, somewhere you got the idea that owners of Chinese lasers spend most of their time trying to fix a multitude of technical issues that would confound the average mortal. You don't choose to back your statements up with data or facts-you only reference "what you have heard or read". I concede that there are Chinese lasers that are crap, but there are also "mainstream" lasers that I wouldn't touch-read the threads. My maintenance costs?- a bit more on the Shenhui because I have two sets of optics to clean, but for an added $28K per year in revenue I can assure you I don't mind.

We do agree on at least one thing, the Chinese (or mainstream) lasers are not for everyone-it depends on your projected use and business goals. True, if you are going to engrave 2 point font on glass earrings then you may want the high end mainstream unit as a $450 lens will give you a bit more definition and detail than a $50 lens. The problem is that many entry level laser buyers have only a vague idea, or one idea, about what they want to do with the machine. and not enough knowledge or information on the various alternatives or what they can expect of the the results.
It's interesting that you think "we make most of our money off responding quickly when other's can't". Au contraire, monsieur, I make most of my money doing things others haven't thought of or projects others don't know how to do.

I appreciate it that you have "no problems with Chinese lasers", although your rhetoric indicates otherwise. For the life of me, I cannot understand your allegation that "some of the analysis that people make that lead them to slamming mainstream lasers". Where? Give me some examples. Do you mean comparing a $5800 Chinese machine to a $40,000 mainstream machine from a cost viewpoint is slamming?

As a next to final note, Keith, you are way off base saying you cannot compare a mainstream laser to a Chinese unit. Off course you can, we have been doing it on this forum for the last four years and more. As Robert Silver has stated, much better than I can, we cannot produce what the Chinese have done because of labor costs and a mess of regulations geared to killing productivity and competiveness. I remember when Japanese cars were considered inferior to US cars, then saw the complete reversal in the "90's. Why we don;t learn from history is beyond me.
As a final not, Scott, we again agree. It would be great to have a database of lasers and a baseline for testing and comparison. I tried, about a year ago, to start a database of laser users and information. I even offered some incentives to register your laser and specs but was forced to abandon the project because it wasn't fair to the foot-pedaled lathe enthusiasts on the forum who didn't own a laser.
Best wishes to all for a very Merry Christmas
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Scott Shepherd]

Here we go again-same old argument without a valid premise. Chinese machines are cheaper- then they must be slower and break more often.
Scott, lets look at your statements and numbers:
1. What is the lifespan of the machine? Who knows? It's not like the whole thing crumbles to dust and has to be replaced. From actual experience my almost 10 year old GCC Mercury has had the tube replaced twice, once under warranty and once for $3500. X-axis motor once, EProms once, two fans, two auto focus cables (cheap ribbons), one power supply ($650), a set of track rollers, and at least three focus probes. It also had the mainboard replaced ($970) but can't count that as it was due to a lightning strike that came in thru the cable TV/Phone?Internet and wiped out two tv's, the GCC, the Shenhui, two cable dvr's, a speaker system, a router, modem, and harddrive. A real mess. All in all,though, not bad for a ten year old ownership.
The Shenhui? Now two years old. Other than the lightning strike (took out the mainboard, but had a spare -$300, so was back running on that in 1 hour while GCC took three days trying to get the right version of the mainboard) the only problems have been:
A.Bad water sensor-had the Shenhui tech on Skype within 10 minutes of calling who told me how to bypass the sensor and then clean it-have two sensors so no safety issues.
B. Replaced one tube-by mistake-was getting double print which turned out to be loose lens-tube was OK.

Bottom line on lifecycle costs. Who knows? I do know that the Shenhui is much more modular as can be upgraded easily with new tubes, mainboards, etc at a reasonable cost. Never, in ten years , did I get anything from GCC that offered any upgrade other than a new driver. Want something better and faster?-buy a new machine.PLEASE NOTE: I am not slamming the mainstream machines as I do not know what upgrades to existing machines is offered by Epilog, Universal, Trotec and others-someone with more knowledge can comment.


2. Now lets talk about production costs. Let's accept your assumption that the Chinese machine operates at 70% the speed of the Epilog. However, I have a much larger bed and TWO tubes so I can achieve 140% of the Epilog output. So in a 6 hour, 5 day week, I can equal the Epilog 30 hour production in 21 hours.So that's 9 hours per week less time. Multiply that times 52 weeks and that's 468 billable hours more, let's say, at $60 per hour. That's $28,000 more I made versus the Epilog doing the same work. That's IF you have 30 hours work. What if you have 40 hours? 50 hours? 5 hours? Oh, I know, you are going to say that's not fair, but they are your numbers.

3. What's the maintenance cost? Somehow, somewhere you got the idea that owners of Chinese lasers spend most of their time trying to fix a multitude of technical issues that would confound the average mortal. You don't choose to back your statements up with data or facts-you only reference "what you have heard or read". I concede that there are Chinese lasers that are crap, but there are also "mainstream" lasers that I wouldn't touch-read the threads. My maintenance costs?- a bit more on the Shenhui because I have two sets of optics to clean, but for an added $28K per year in revenue I can assure you I don't mind.

We do agree on at least one thing, the Chinese (or mainstream) lasers are not for everyone-it depends on your projected use and business goals. True, if you are going to engrave 2 point font on glass earrings then you may want the high end mainstream unit as a $450 lens will give you a bit more definition and detail than a $50 lens. The problem is that many entry level laser buyers have only a vague idea, or one idea, about what they want to do with the machine. and not enough knowledge or information on the various alternatives or what they can expect of the the results.
It's interesting that you think "we make most of our money off responding quickly when other's can't". Au contraire, monsieur, I make most of my money doing things others haven't thought of or projects others don't know how to do.

I appreciate it that you have "no problems with Chinese lasers", although your rhetoric indicates otherwise. For the life of me, I cannot understand your allegation that "some of the analysis that people make that lead them to slamming mainstream lasers". Where? Give me some examples. Do you mean comparing a $5800 Chinese machine to a $40,000 mainstream machine from a cost viewpoint is slamming?

As a next to final note, Keith, you are way off base saying you cannot compare a mainstream laser to a Chinese unit. Off course you can, we have been doing it on this forum for the last four years and more. As Robert Silver has stated, much better than I can, we cannot produce what the Chinese have done because of labor costs and a mess of regulations geared to killing productivity and competiveness. I remember when Japanese cars were considered inferior to US cars, then saw the complete reversal in the "90's. Why we don;t learn from history is beyond me.
As a final not, Scott, we again agree. It would be great to have a database of lasers and a baseline for testing and comparison. I tried, about a year ago, to start a database of laser users and information. I even offered some incentives to register your laser and specs but was forced to abandon the project because it wasn't fair to the foot-pedaled lathe enthusiasts on the forum who didn't own a laser.
Best wishes to all for a very Merry Christmas
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

How to respond to that is a puzzle to me. George, you come to this discussion every time I post assuming I'm bashing your choice. That couldn't be further from the truth. Show me where I said that the cost to maintain a Chinese machine WAS more than a mainstream machine. What I SAID was that it's SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE CONSIDERED. That means that it's PART of the equation. If the answer is "Chinese machines are less expensive to maintain", then they answer is "Chinese machines are less to maintain". I never once gave my opinion of if I thought the cost was more or less. I didn't say because I don't know. How you read negative comments into everything I post is something I can't control.

I used numbers as basic examples of how you check the cost of ownership on ANY piece of equipment. If you don't agree with that, I'm sorry, I can't control that. I'm merely saying that you should think about things other than initial cost when purchasing a machine.

IF THAT MEANS IT MAKES MORE SENSE FOR YOU TO BUY A CHINESE MACHINE, BUY ONE. IF IT DOESN'T, DON'T. Not sure how many different ways I have to say that.

The "comments" about quality on items comes from this forum itself. Read the forum. I believe it may have been you that said you can't do fonts less than 4 points. There's a thread now about circles not cutting round.

From the way I read YOUR posts, YOU appear to be the one that says if you buy a mainstream machine, you are a fool, which I strongly disagree with.

I also didn't say YOU make most your money off responding quickly, I said "I" make most our money off things like that. So please get the context right when trying to represent things I didn't say about you or any owner.

[Rodne Gold]

If you need transport and can't afford a Rolls Royce , you buy what you can and live with any compromises.

[Keith Outten]

George,

Just because a low percentage of people feel that they can compare apples to oranges doesn't make it viable and it doesn't support a reasonable argument. I stand by my statement that these two types of machines are not in the same class.

What happened in the past with Japanese automobiles could happen again with laser engravers but it could take some time and it is unlikely.

Labor costs associated with western brand laser engravers are a far cry from the 700% difference in cost of the two types of machines. The cost of high end laser engravers is based on the sum of its very high end precision parts. I ran a Xenetech machine for five years and owned an Epilog in the past, neither was in the same class as the machines that Trotec is manufacturing today IMO. So, if I am correct based on my first hand knowledge about the quality of these three machines I am probably correct in my assessment of the Chinese machine I owned. It wasn't a bad machine it just wasn't up to the task for the work in my shop or in the sign shop at CNU. There is no way to compare the 80 watt Chinese machine with the 80 watt Trotec and I owned both machines.

Now, I have no problem stating that if I was a hobby laser engraver or a small business on a tight budget I would purchase a Chinese machine and not even look at any of the high end Western/Austrian Machines.
.

[Dan Hintz]

If you need transport and can't afford a Rolls Royce , you buy what you can and live with any compromises.

That about sums it up, Rodney...

On another foot, you also choose based upon what you think you can get away with. If you can afford a Rolls, but want to save a bit of money and purchase a Toyota, you take your lumps when something goes wrong...

[Robert Silvers]

I stand by my statement that these two types of machines are not in the same class.

For sure they are not in the same class.

What happened in the past with Japanese automobiles could happen again with laser engravers but it could take some time and it is unlikely.

It is not the same situation as cars because the Chinese are not trying to make their machines as nice as the US machines. They are going after a different market altogether. If they wanted to make an a $42,000 Epilog they could do it right now. It would not sell for $5,800.

Labor costs associated with western brand laser engravers are a far cry from the 700% difference in cost of the two types of machines.

In reality it is closer to 3:1 for equal quality product.

My friend had a mold made in China for $300,000 that was quoted as $900,000 in the USA. In that case, the product was the same (made to the drawing). I have seen the same 3:1 in products I have experience with.

In summary, the Epilog is probably 2.3x better for 7x the cost and the Chinese could sell something equal to it for ~$14,000.

People are delusional to under-estimate them. They can make nuclear weapons and space vehicles. They graduate 400,000 engineers per year. US is 70,000. The difference between Shanghai and Detroit is like comparing a new Lexus to a 1970s Pinto - I am not exaggerating. The city is like from the future.

Really. Go to China and your world will be turned upside down.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoess...o_shanghai.jpg

[Dave Sheldrake]

you also choose based upon what you think you can get away with.

Yup exactly

That's what I did,

Firstly I didn't do a lot of research and bought an Epilog then a Universal to cover most of my bases, they were great and did what I needed to do at the time
I wanted to chew out some wooden disks (rather a lot of them) so got a few Chinese machines from a UK supplier.The size isn't +/- microns so accuracy wasn't critical.
I also wanted to mark direct on metals at a decent price (I do very little engraving) so a Chinese Galvo Yag it was.
I wanted to cut some metals but with good speed (as the metals weren't particularly thick) so a custom built Galvo came next (Western made)
I had a need for cutting thicker metals at good speed so two VERY expensive full spec Mitsubishi's was the option I went for. (I later got rid of one as the work slowed down and I'm not in the habit of working machines for McDonalds money)

None of the machines would do all the jobs I needed done (from the few thousand $$ Chinese to the several hundred thousand $$ Mitsu's) so "needs must" in the end.

One thing I have learned, it's a lot easier to buy the wrong machine than it is to buy the right one

People are delusional to under-estimate them.

Got that right, the only reason some Western companies still exist is simply because the Chinese manufacturers have no interest in playing with them. They are the worlds second biggest economic power, within 10 years they will be number 1 quite easily.
The pinnacle of the come back story, Apple, world leaders in their small tablet and music players and with massive profits and cash flow available. All made in China.

Like the scene in the film Armageddon on the returning shuttle that won't start, Lev the cosmonaut says "American components, Russian components,.....all made in Taiwan"

cheers

Dave

[Glen Monaghan]

I would agree about not under-estimating China, but "city from the future?" I spent a month roaming across China, including a couple of days in Shanghai. They have some futuristic looking architecture as you have shown, and fascinating nightly light shows built into the facades of many buildings. But the Jetsons it ain't. I saw an awful lot of yesteryear shoe-horned into that city. In what significant way is the city "like from the future" (other than being intensely crowded)?