What to buy, what to buy?

[Kyle J. Britt]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum (discovered it in my search for a laser cutter/engraver) so I'm sorry if this question has been asked before and I couldn't easily find it.

I've started a business selling some laser cut and engraved wood products (made of 1/16 inch aircraft plywood) and been renting time on a laser cutter at a local shop to fulfill my demands, but it's getting to a point where it might begin to make sense for me to own my own machine. For cost reasons, I'd like to start with a lower cost unit and work my way up. I'd like to spend less than $5000 on my first machine, all in, and don't mind a used or chinese machine if it will get me off the rented machine and let me save up for a nicer machine.

My only specs are a 12x24 work area and the ability to cut and engrave 1/16" aircraft plywood. I've seen used machines that seem to meet the specs and of course the direct from china machines.

What's the better bet? New and chinese or used? Is there a huge reason to go for a slightly more expensive new machine? Am I opening myself up for abuse by even asking about a chinese machine? Help me, I'm green to laser cutting, so I'm open to any and all advice.

Thanks,
Kyle

[Howard Garner]

You could keep watching ebay.

This spring I caught a Universal Versa 3.50 30 watt unit, 3 years old for just over 5K
Took aday to drive, see it in action and return home, about a 16 hour trip

The used deals are there, it may just take some time for them to show up.

Howard Garner
Universal Lasesr VL300 and VL3.50, both 30 watt

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hiya Kyle,

Personally I'd go with new Chinese at that kind of budget. Western machines come up second hand for 3 main reasons

1: They are knackered and the owner wants rid
2: The owner is selling a good machine because he is buying a bigger one
3: The owner is getting out of laser cutting (for any number of reasons)

$3,750 to $4,000 will get you the size you want from China along with some spares like lens's and mirrors.

If you do go western and opt for an RF unit then ask about how long since the last re-charge, when they do need refilling that can run to $2,500 a time whereas most Chinese glass DC tubes can be replaced for under $200 for one of similar power.

Chinese support can vary between excellent and non existant depending on company but G Weike and Shenui are both well known and have good reputations. HX Laser are also great machines (in the US they are sold as Rabbit by Ray Scott of Rabbit Laser), Home grown imported such as Hurricane could be an option but I don't know if John has anything at that price point.

General running costs in consumables are way higher on western machines (I've owned both Western, Japanese and Chinese machines) for example a lens can vary between $30 for a Chinese version or $250 for a Western version (when they essentially do the same job)

Direct comparisons from purists on both sides of the fence are usually flawed, it's like comparing a Ford Escort to a Nissan GTR, of course the GTR is a better car, then again it should be, it costs 5x as much. The biggest downside of Chinese machines is the claims made about their cutting ability, no matter what anybody likes to think a 40 watt laser is NOT going to be cutting 25mm acrylic anytime soon at anywhere near decent speeds or quality.

Same with tube life, I've seen DC tubes last 10 minutes when abused, I've also seen RF tubes go in double figure hours when abused (< 99 hrs)

If I were sat in your chair I'd go new Chinese, at least that way if it all goes tilt you won't lose your shirt on a money pit.

best wishes

Dave

[Mike Null]

I would look hard for a used Western machine. I want something I don't have to spend my time tinkering with. Chinese machines are cheap for a reason.

[matthew knott]

I would look hard for a used Western machine. I want something I don't have to spend my time tinkering with. Chinese machines are cheap for a reason.

A good used western machine is OK but there are bad ones out there, and you really dont know what your getting, if you find after 6 weeks it needs the tube re-charging, then a control board and a few optics plus a service visit and maybe a motor (i know its unlikely to be that bad) then your in for a heap of cash. I'm not sure where this idea that you need to constantly tinker with chinese machines to get the best out of them, they are much easier to fix yourself and work just fine.
Another point (i will get in trouble for this but people with expensive (western) machines seem very down on chinese lasers, always defending their position, they are better for sure but how much better is debatable, people with both chinese lasers and western often sing the praises of the chinese machines (i have both), and people with just chinese give mixed reviews. I don't think you will get unbiased view as who is really qualified to give one, its like asking whats the best car you can buy (the answer is Porsche!)

[Dave Sheldrake]

people with both chinese lasers and western often sing the praises of the chinese machines (i have both)

Same Matt, I like Western machines I just don't like how much they cost to get fixed when something goes wrong that on a Chinese machine I can usually fix myself

its like asking whats the best car you can buy (the answer is Nissan GTR)

Couldn't agree more Matt

best wishes

Dave

[Mike Null]

That's not a bad argument if you are a hobbyist or have a staff and other machines to take up the slack when one of your Chinese machines needs its frequent maintenance but if you're a one machine operation doing this for a living then it's an entirely different scenario.

With my Trotec I've had one day of downtime in 7 years---tell me about economy.

[Mark Ross]

What we do is "mission critical". Our lasers print money as we jokingly say. Therefore our units our Epilog and the most a machine is down when something goes south is one business day. We have two 36 EXT's and would not trade them for a container load of chinese lasers.

[matthew knott]

Totally understand! And if your up and running and making good money from the lasers, the actual capital cost of the laser pales in insignificance. Starting from ground zero buying a western machine is a chunk of change, and honestly the Chinese machines don't need any extra maintenance over what you should be doing to the western machines (optics cleaning & general house keeping). I doubt anyone would seriously regret buying a half decent Chinese machine, they do the job pretty well, and you could always sell it, they tend to be worth more when you sell them as people dont like ordering from China. I would imagine a new Trotec or Epilog would also hold its price very well but will lose some % and that will equate to some hard cash. From what i know 'I' would start cheap and go from there, but that's just me, used western is a gamble and you might get lucky or buy a pup, ask your self "do you feel lucky?"
I always thought it would be great to have a massive warehouse like a KMart full of all the different lasers and unbiased sales staff showing you all the products and the pro & cons so you can see for yourself , but i cant see that ever happening.

[Rodne Gold]

What you buy depends on your budget. Sub 5k will get you an old mainstream machine with limited power and bed size or a new chinese machine with 2-3x the power and bed size - up to you.

[George M. Perzel]

It is truly amazing the number of folks who knock the chinese machines and have no experience owning or operating one. I guess you can find unfounded prejudice in every facet of life.
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[matthew knott]

It is truly amazing the number of folks who knock the Chinese machines and have no experience owning or operating one. I guess you can find unfounded prejudice in every facet of life.
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

Human Nature George, I think the Trotec machines are stunning bits of kit with beautiful build quality but that will never come cheap. As i pointed out just because you have a western machine and would never buy a Chinese that does not make you right,its just your opinion. Several people on here have both or operate Chinese machines and are very happy with them. Most of us dont feel the need to tinker with the machines, they just work, and work pretty good. As Rodne point out, its all in the budget, you pays your money and takes your choice.

[Scott Shepherd]

It is truly amazing the number of folks who knock the chinese machines and have no experience owning or operating one. I guess you can find unfounded prejudice in every facet of life.
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

That's a 2 way street George. It's amazing how many people with Chinese lasers say how mainstream lasers are a waste, when they've never run a 2013 Trotec, Universal, or Epilog. So it's not an elite club anyone belongs to, it truly goes both ways.

I think the average journey for someone looking for a laser is to come to a forum like this and then start searching for models in the search to see how many issues come up. I think that's how most people pick their lasers. So I'd challenge you to take that perspective, search Epilog, Universal, Trotec, and then Chinese lasers. See which one is riddled with things not working and having to have electronics knowledge to repair them. How many times have you read "be care when tinkering in that area, touch the wrong thing and you can die". Not exactly something Suzie homemaker looking for some part time work wants to get involved in.

A Chinese laser might be perfect for you and your needs. It might not be for me. Doesn't make you right or me wrong. It means we have different expectations and different requirements.

That's not bashing any machine of any origin, that's just a fact. You can't tell someone what machine would be best for them unless you have intimate knowledge of their business model and requirements, something that is rarely, if ever, posted in threads like this.

[Rodne Gold]

Cheaper lasers are counterproductive to business , the issue is the lowering of barriers to entry in the field. Expensive machines mean less folk can own them and those that do are "serious" about the business and maintaining pricing due to the high capital cost. There really is a finite amount of jobbing laser type work out there and albeit the chinese lasers might be a little more finicky than mainstream , they actually both do the job well. The whole business model gets messed up when the 2 guys on your block buy lasers at 1/5th your price and go after your slice of the pie , no matter how casually they do so.
You can attempt to undercut them , and make no money , or maintain your price and deliver quality and service - but customers are price fickle too.....
I maintain the real way to use a laser and make money out of it is to add value to a core product you sell and be innovative in how you use the tool , just setting up "a laser engraving business" means you compete with the "rats and mice" these days...

[Joe Hillmann]

I have Universals and one Chinese yag that is a pain

With that said, in your price range I would look at a Chinese machine. I would be worried about any western laser that is the size you need and fits your budget, if it needs the tube charged that right there will cost at least $1000. And I would assume any second hand machine will be needing a new tube right away. Then if you need new belts, or a stepper motor or motherboard, or lens it can all add up quickly.

Whereas that same budget can get you a brand new Chinese machine and a pile of spare parts. And if you do end up needing parts for it, who cares, the parts are cheap(in comparison to a western laser).

No matter which route you go do your homework.

If you are looking at a western machine the companies keep track of them by serial number and if you call them up and ask about the history of the machine they can tell you what parts have been ordered for it. That way you can look for one with a newer tube. I would also ask to see it run before you buy it.

If you end up going with a machine from China maybe you can find someone on the forum near you who has the same machine and would be willing to let you see how it works and if it will work for what you want. Also if getting one from China order from a company with a good reputation.