Issues with both Laguna and MiniMax regarding their Bandsaws

[Frank Trinkle]

Please excuse the long post, but I gotta get this said!

I am frustrated right now. I'm in the middle of finalizing a number of purchases to completely update my woodshop with what I am calling "Lifelong" tools. This involves replacement of virtually all of my current floor machines with high quality (meaning expensive) tools that I am convinced will last me for as long as I can walk, stand, or crawl to operate them.

Of these machines, I have determined that I want two bandsaws. One that will take blades as narrow as 1/16" for scroll work on large items, and a 16-20" saw that will be dedicated primarily to resawing. Up until July 1st, I had pretty much settled on purchasing a Laguna 14X14 SUV for the smaller saw, and a Laguna LT20 Italian for the larger one.

Over the last three months, I have been in contact with Tim at Laguna, basically settling on what I was choosing. He recommended that I send in a deposit primarily for the LT20 to insure that I would get one out of their shipment sometime in August or September, which fits my timeframe as I won't be back in the USA until September, and then only for about five weeks. (I work in Africa on a six-weeks on, six-weeks off schedule). This would supposedly also lock in my price. Tim told me there would be no issue with the 14SUV as they always had plenty of stock. I asked Tim to please send me an email with instructions on how and where to send a deposit, and he agreed. I got NO email. I called again about three or four weeks later to get some additional info, and again asked him for not only the same info by email, but also for some info on the products themselves. AGAIN NO EMAIL or FOLLOWUP! Tim's a nice guy, and we've had some great conversations, but now... if I decide to still purchase these Laguna models, Tim has cost me an additional $800+ by not following up!!! Laguna raised their prices on bandsaws on 1 July. I was in Africa when this all came about and never got an email or other notification that this was about to happen. What really ticks me off is that Torben raised prices on the LT20 by more than 12% and the 14SUV by around 10%. PLEASE JUSTIFY THAT!!! The LT20 saws are made in Italy where the Euro is the base currency. The U.S. Dollar has been climbing against the Euro for the last six months, and is currently at two year highs and getting stronger. The dollar against Asian currencies has been climbing even stronger. At the same time, the inflation rate in the USA based on the Consumer Price Index is currently below 3% per annum. So HOW does Laguna justify a 10-12% increase in the cost?? If anything, the price should be going DOWN! That all being said, I am now looking at other options...which brings me to MiniMax...

I got a PM from Erik of MiniMax who had been reading my other posts regarding my upgrades, and suggested that I might consider MiniMax as an option to Laguna. Fair enough. So I went to MiniMax's website to take a deeper look. That was a total waste of time. Specs listed were minimal, and a lot of the videos were non-functional. That states quite a bit about lack of attention to detail. Furthermore, there are absolutely no prices listed on any of the products. And by the way, when you DO shoot a video of a tool's features, you don't have to show the SAME CUT IN REAL TIME, FOUR TIMES!!! Showing one leg's cut, or one veneer cut is PLENTY...don't waste our time!

To MiniMax: This is 2013, not 1989! In the early days of the Internet's World Wide Web, many companies didn't ever list prices so that potential customers would be FORCED to interact directly with a salesman before being "allowed" to get information. 99% of those companies learned that was a BAD practice and abandoned the high-pressure tactic. Apparently, MiniMax has not learned this lesson. As a matter of principle, I will NOT deal with a company that won't be transparent in their advertising and provide information that their potential customers are researching. What are you hiding?? People today do not have the time or the desire to have to go beyond the net in order to do initial research and due diligence. While your company may make a good product, I want to be able to get all the info I need from the net...and then if I have questions, I'd be happy to call you or request email info. C'mon folks... come on up to the 21st century! And while I'm at it, Yahoo Message Boards are NOT the place to run a forum. It's just about as archaic as MS-DOS. (Felder Owner Group is also guilty of this). You want to get with the times? Take a look at the Festool Owner's Group forums, or even right here on SMC. No one likes getting emails, or even daily compilations of the latest posts. That's what the WEB is for.

So... I'm now in a quandry. Some of MM's stuff "looks" good, but can't be convinced by their site info alone, and I refuse to be forced into a situation where I have to "talk" to a salesman to get information that should be readily available. On the other hand, I am totally ticked off at Laguna for not following up with me, and now forcing me to make a decision to spend an additional $800 for two products that I could have locked in if only Tim had followed up appropriately with info on how to send a deposit.

I hope that this post is read by both companies, and gives them an idea of the frustration they cause when they either ignore their potential customers, or when they show that a lack of attention to details is causing customers to back away.

[Sam Murdoch]

I went through a bit of a frustration when I bought my Laguna bandsaw. Made all the arrangements including ordering a mobility kit and some blades, all as one purchase order. The bandsaw finally arrived - about 6 days later than I was told to expect it (oh well) but the mobility kit was not with the rest of my order. I e-mailed my salesman (my version of Tim) to ask him about the wheels and he writes back to say that - oops, sorry, we don't have those in stock right know. They are back ordered for 4 weeks but will send one out as son as they come in. - This was the first I heard of this and that meant that I was not to receive the rest of my order for at least 6 weeks.

Lots more back and forth to this story but the upshot is I stopped talking to my "Tim" and went directly to a sales manager. He was much more able to help and very agreeable. I would think that the price increase notwithstanding, if you had a quote from a Laguna rep, they will - very likely (I think) - honor the original price quoted. You just need to talk to the right person. Can't speak to the MiniMax issue.

Good luck. And yes, let them know that they are being discussed in a very public woodworking forum.

[Dan Blackshear]

Hi Frank. I can understand your frustration. In the day of instant communication across the globe and any information you want usually at your fingertips it can be frustrating to not find what you need when you want it. While I cannot speak for the customer service you got from Laguna (which sounds less than optimal but seems to be typical based on other posts here) I can say that while like you, I did feel that Mini Max's website could be much, much better, I did get all of the information you are looking for by clicking the request pricing info on their site via email within a few hours.

I cannot say for sure why they do it this way, maybe it's to avoid some of the frustration you feel with the other company changing their prices and they decided it's easier to update a price sheet that gets sent out rather than update a web page when prices are subject to change based on economic conditions. I do agree though it seems kinda silly to not have the tool specs listed on the web site, those should stay the same.

Is it the way things are typically done in this day and age? No. Does it cost them some sales? Probably. It's the business model they use though while you may not agree with it, I think it's a little short sited to write off what could be a lifelong tool because you have to contact them for additional info.

Another thing to consider is the fact that someone representing the company contacted you when they saw what you were looking for based on your posts in a forum. To me that indicates they are listening to this part of their customer base, or at least seeing what we have to say. There are a few tool company reps that watch these forums and in my opinion has only resulted in a positive reaction to their companies. Maybe that whole "Gotta deal with a person instead of a web-page" isn't so bad. Which brings me to another question, could you have just purchased the saw through Lagunas' website and avoided the delay and the price increase and put in the comments when you wanted to take delivery? If it's more complicated then that, then it sounds like you are going to have to deal with a person anyway. Why not send in the request for info and get a contact?

Again, I'm sorry you are having such a bad experience with Laguna, when you are dropping a ton of coin and building that dream shop you want everything to just kinda fall into place and make you feel good about it, not frustrated. But at the same time don't let a less than optimal web page sour the deal either. Oh, one more thing. In the email I got from Sam when I requested the pricing info, he did inform me that bandsaws were 10% for the month of July due to AWS, so I wouldn't wait too long.

[Stephen Cherry]

The solution is pretty easy. BUY USED. That way you can look at the machine, take it for a test drive, and see if you like it before you buy it. Plus you generally get lots of freebees with it, such as a bunch of blades.

For example, I bought my 24 inch agazzani for about 2200 (?). This was a very lightly used machine, and included two carbine blades, and a bunch of smaller. The transaction is as simple as an inspection, cash changing hands, and a handshake and bill of sale.

I agree, if you want to sell to hobbyists, you should have a website with details and prices. How else will you know if you want and can afford a machine.

[David Weaver]

Personally, I'd give my business to MM if the costs were similar and Laguna let you hang out to dry for $800 and then didn't honor the commitment they made. It's that easy, I wouldn't reward them with *anything*. You don't need a special saw to run a 1/16" to 1/4" blade, just about anything out there used will do it just fine.

For the big saw, I'd get the minimax. I only ever bought one thing from laguna, a $175 waste of money resaw king that never was right. Laguna might have some nice stuff peppered in among other stuff that's not that great, but why bother hassling yourself with it?

When I talked to various companies at IWF several years ago (buddy and I were there looking at sliders), the guys from the minimax booth were personable and not at all pushy.

[David Kumm]

At the end of the day it is the machine that is important. The MM20 is the resaw machine. Heavier with a stouter frame than the ACM 20. They have a crappy website but a slick site doesn't make for a slick machine. There are also lots of used 24" or larger machines out there. I wouldn't trade my 1936 Oliver for any new saw. Dave

[Jeff Monson]

Seems like I read a lot of threads concerning Laguna and poor customer service, its too bad they don't want your money. I'll also agree that Minimax does need a webite update. I will attest to seeing their products 1st hand they do have nice bandsaws. Have you considered Felder?? You will get great customer service, I can promise you that. The new FB510 would fit your 20" need, not sure on the 14" though.

[Phil Thien]

I'd talk to Jesse at Eagle Tools about Agazzani bandsaws.

Agazzani bandsaw site:
http://www.agazzani.it/agazzani-gb/b.../bandsaws.html

Eagle Tools site:
http://www.eagle-tools.com/index.html


Warning: Jesse can be a bear to get ahold of. He has a very loyal following, because he does what he says he will do.

In fact, when Inca pulled out of the US market (sorta), Jesse bought-up all the parts/supplies of Inca gear from the other Inca vendors, to make sure he'd have parts to take care of his Inca customers. That is dedication to your customer, in my estimation, that is hard to match.

[David Kumm]

Felder sources larger saws from ACM. The Hammer and FB series are more in house. they are very nice for the price but are price point driven and not a true resaw capable machine. Both the new Panhans ( replacement for Aggi ) and the MM are a step up. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

I think Erik has explained one reason why it is like it is, so I won't single out MiniMax or Laguna. What I will say is when you start looking at bigger, more pro level equipment having to talk to a sales person is the norm, not the exception! Wether we like it or not, it is the way it is. Things are changing slowly but surely, I've seen some pricing for companies like Martin, SCM, and Felder online. But many of the lesser known companies you still need to call.

Now as to lifetime bandsaws.....that's of course going to come down to personal opinion. I couldn't imagine buying any of the affordable saws out there as a lifetime saw. I'd be more inclined to look at an older Tannewitz, Oliver, or even some of the older European made machines out there. I know used isn't for everyone, but I find I get much better quality for my money there....YMMV

Lastly as the others have eluded to, make sure you buy the right machine for you based on the machine. If your convinced one machine is better for you than the other, but you don't buy it b/c of a crappy website or lousy CS you may well regretting it for a long time. If you still have your heart set on the Laguna I'd call and talk to the same salesperson you spoke with before. If they're a stand up company they should take care of you and sell it to you for the pre-increase price.....at least I think they should

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Oddly, if you go to the SCM site, you can get more info there on MM machines, unless its changed, than on the Minimax USA site. I'm a window shopper, a tire kicker, a tool junkie, I like to look...and review, and dream, and compare......It irritates me that their site isn't better given the parent companies stature in the pro wood working market and the quality of their offerings at every level. But it's a small thing really. I signed up for info, it was sent immediately, I was never harassed or given a hard sell. Wound up buying a used minimax privately, still like to peruse the info.

On the prices....it's not a grocery store or a Walmart. They are selling machines. I don't know any industrial companies that post prices online. Felder will give prices (not saying they are industrial, just similar to MM), but you have to sign up, and they will call you. For years. Erik says no prices is to avoid confusion. You would probably be more than just confused if you got a price for a machine in Pesos, did the currency conversion....I'm not a gambler, but I'd be willing to bet the markup is a lot lower there than here. Thats a pretty standard practice, markup higher in more wealthy countries than developing nations. But it is the world we live in. I certainly wouldn't be trying to buy a machine in Juarez and have it shipped here to save a few bucks. The net makes some things simpler, some things less so. The sellers are used to having all the information in a transaction, the net has largely changed this, now buyers have more info than ever. Here is an increasingly rare case where the seller chooses to retain their pricing info. Their goal is to maximize profits, giving you more information on pricing in different markets rarely accomplishes this. They don't want "parity", where prices should fall in the long term, they exist today. THey want to sell at the highest price each market will bare, and they will put up barriers to prevent you from crossing the border to achieve a lower price. I would too. Well, thats my .02.

On the Laguna thing......thats all I have to say about that.

Fact is I enjoy working wood more than I like setting up shops or picking out the perfect machines at this point. I get the emphasis on picking out those perfect machines during the set up phase, and how it becomes a game or a goal of its own. My advice, step back and let some air out of the balloon. It's not like picking the surgeon for a transplant. Its just a BS. They all cut pretty good, the prices are all pretty similar at each level, the market and the vendors have seen to that. Minimax makes really good tools. I've used a few at this point. I've never bought one new, but its pretty painless to get the info you require, and of all the companies I researched of that type when setting up, they were the least intrusive. You wrote that you were speaking to Laguna, I'd suggest you take a chance and do the same with minimax.

[Erik Loza]

One thing just occurred to me: Frank, not sure if you were aware but AWFS Vegas is right around the corner and that would be a great place to see all your target machines in person and actually kick the tires. Especially since it sounds like you are considering a CNC, the cost of the trip seems like it could be a wise investment toward making the choices you want.

Just my thoughts,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I love my MM24. Only one with a chain driven guide post. Doesn't get clogged with sawdust.

[Sam Murdoch]

My impression with the Laguna issues is that the sales staff ARE NOT ALLOWED any leeway in dealing with customers. There is a severe lack of imagination or of a "yes we can do that" spirit that separates a great company from all the rest. It is not just enough to have a good product. I and Frank (the OP) should not need to go over the heads of the contact salesperson to get satisfactory results. Listen up Laguna!

Having said all that - my very recent experience with Laguna came out very satisfactorily (after bypassing the salesman and speaking only to management) AND, I am very happy with the bandsaw and the Resaw King blades of 2013. The product is excellent. I don't think Laguna is the nightmare customer service company of years ago. They just aren't finished with their evolution. Too bad! It's their loss - yes there are other machine choices out there...

[Jamie Buxton]

That's a weak argument. Car companies have figured out how to do this. You get your Canadian pricing from ToyotaCanada.com or the like, US pricing from ToyotaUSA.com, and Mexican pricing from ToyotaMexico.com. The three countries can have different pricing structures, have different tariff structures, and have different shipping costs. And of course, the prices are quoted in different currencies. Not a problem.