May I be Nosey?

[bobby milam]

Nice table. Out of my price range!

[Keith Outten]

Shari,

How about sharing some pictures of your Patriot router?
I haven't seen or heard of the company yet.
.

[Shari Loveless]

Keith,
I'd be happy to. May be after the 4th before I get to it. It's in a very small room and blocked in on two sides and yet it's very workable. They do make a 4x4 as well. It is a first class machine in components and the company people are very passionate and knowledgeable about what they build. I ordered the machine without a tool changer but I do have the automatic tool height sensor. Just change bits, do a M101 and carve the next file. I can't believe how quiet it is. I have to check on it just to make sure it's running sometimes. I only have to use the dust collection for the precarve, never for the final carve. I have run files for 50+ hours with 3 bit changes and the machine never hiccuped. I don't have the handheld pendant yet, but it's on my list. Their website is freedomcnc dot com if you want to look at pics and specs.

When I priced out other somewhat similar machines with quality components, the Patriot was not at all over priced in comparison. I also drove up and toured the factory before ordering. That was an awesome eye opener. Loved the adventure. We tested our files on several machine brands before we made our decision. Lots of driving to different locations to see and test them. We are extremely happy with our choice. Our software is Artcam Pro. That's another item you won't outgrow.

I've attached a couple of pics of some stuff I've done on the machine recently. The king size bed footboard with moose went to a Jackson Hole client. That slab is 3" thick and the carving is 1" deep....it's BIG and HEAVY. The little bear box is 5 x 7 and cut from a thick slab.

Hope everyone has a great and safe fourth of July!!!
Shari
bearbox.jpgmoosebedpics.JPGbighorn.jpg

[Art Mann]

Just looking at their website, the FMT Patriot is waaaay too expensive for me. You can't argue with results though. From what I can tell from the photos, those pieces are just beautiful. Those are the results I am hoping for from a less expensive unit. Of course, those pieces owe their beauty to the design, not just the machine. You have my highest compliments.

[Roy Nielsen]

Art,

There has been a lot of great discussion from the commercial route.

I'll throw out some thoughts from a DIY builder/hobbyist. I built a 18"x51" capacity (+ some over air if I ever need to do some dovetails or other end cuts, also I can index my material in either X or Y direction to get more capacity) using 80/20 for the frame, used industrial linear bearings, some CNCRouterParts_com pieces, NEMA 23 steppers, Gecko drivers, other misc electronics, router for a spindle. The size chosen reflects my relatively small available work space versus one of the prime drivers (future cabinets project) for building the machine. Total hardware and electronics cost of around $1.5K as I recall estimating, about evenly split between hardware and electronics; much of the hardware was purchased via eBay auctions where I got some pretty good deals, probably saving me close to $500. Add to that cost of tools needed to build, software (VCarve Pro for design, CNC gcode control--$free LinuxCNC), router bits, spare parts, etc. and I'm probably pushing the $3K mark.

As a hobbyist, the experience and education were invaluable to me and I would do it over. I know the machine, can repair it myself. I can also modify it myself if I want more capacity and can arrange more room for it. For instance, I'm planning on building a bolt-on/off horizontal rotary and possibly a vertical rotary.

As for accuracy, it is slightly out of square in X-Y, X-Z, and Y-Z by about 1-3/10ths of a degree (as measured by Wixey gauge) so fairly accurate for most tasks but may cause problems when I get around trying to do inlays--I'm trying to figure out how to add fine adjustment mechanisms. The machine is still small enough that I can do delicate work such as lithophanes with great results.

If I had to do all over again, I would probably buy/build a good small machine, in the 12"x12" range, such as MicroCarve's machines, and later a mid-size machine. So far (still haven't go to the cabinets), around 95% of the stuff I've done would have fit on a small machine. I may still build a small machine that would allow me to run multiple jobs simultaneously or easier to load smaller jobs.

If you do choose to build your own or from a kit, DO NOT skimp on the electronics. I've seen too many people try the cheap route and after tiring with the constant problems of breaking, bad jobs, whatever, end up buying the better stuff. Only talking $150-250 or so difference, maybe less.

Would I want to run a business from a DIY system? I guess it really depends on what I was making. If I were doing something small, such as the jewelry boxes you mentioned, then yes, I would on a small to mid-size machine (or multiple machines). If I needed to process large sheet goods or slabs, then I'd probably lean toward a commercial machine as I don't the tools and haven't done anything like that in decades.

Good luck with whichever direction you choose to take.

[William Adams]

Some more data from the other end of the spectrum.

Bought an open source hobbyist machine (a ShapeOko) back at the beginning of the year, got it running in its default configuration, added a drive shaft which is pretty much a mandatory upgrade, then increased the size of one axis to 1m and improved the machine rigidity by doubling up the other axis by re-using a rail. Upgraded the Z-axis to an Acme screw and built a torsion box for a base, worked up cable management using 36" zip ties, and worked up dust collection of a sheet of transparency film:

640px-Wfa_shapeoko_ziptie_cable-mgmnt_mk-iii.JPG

I've cut some test pieces and one small test project --- been working on my first real project, but finding open source software to be a challenge and hand-coding G-code to be tedious.

I've been trying to get everything about the machine documented in the wiki:

http://www.shapeoko.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Hoping the Fabrication & Manufacturing stackexchange site will help to make more information available:

http://area51.stackexchange.com/prop...MEAKpA7nTzd4Q2

Did source an extruder for 3D printing and looking forward to experimenting w/ it.

[Keith Outten]

Shari,

Thanks for the pics and the web site info.
Nice work as always, your designs are eye candy and it looks like you found the machine you have been looking for
.

[Art Mann]

Thanks Roy and William for relating your experiences with build-it-yourself. I haven't given up on that possibility yet. I was going over all the products and information on cncrouterparts.com just yesterday. As I mentioned earlier, I am confident I could build a machine. I just want to make sure the design was engineered to be reliable and cut as accurately as a commercial machine. I am also concerned about integrating design software, tool path software and controller software on a home built machine. My main interest is making artistic and practical projects from wood or alternative materials rather than making carving machines. On the other hand, the potential for saving some money and the satisfaction I would get from building my own machine is appealing.

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

I have just finished building and testing my CNC Router Parts CRP4848 (yeah, I know, I need to update my thread!). If you are concerned about integrating design software, tool path software, and controller software on one of their machines, don't be at all! I bought VCarve Pro and Mach 3. I finished the mechanical part of my machine and set up the computer and hooked it all up. I used their XML configuration file and I had my machine jogging on the third day after starting building. On the 4th day, I was making my first cuts. It just works and works flawlessly. The very first time I tried jogging the machine, it moved exactly as I told it to. I am not into carving at all. VCarve Pro is NOT specifically a carving program. It is a tool pathing program that is super easy to work with and it works great with Mach3. You can do v-carving, sure, but you can also do complete 2.5d work with it as well. This was my very first venture into the CNC world and it has been a GREAT experience building my own machine. I am really glad I did, especially for the money I saved and the fact I know every inch of my machine and how it all goes together. I was intimidated by building my own at first but it all simply comes together easily.

As for money, I have right at $4,100 in my 48x48 machine with all electronics, including shipping. This includes an upgrade to the rack and pinion system and extras such as proximity limit switches and KentCNC's dust collection foot. I have about $400 in my base materials but I went a little overboard. It is very stout and strong, though! I also have another $720 in software and $180 in dust collection via a dedicated Harbor Fright dust collector that is vented to the outside so no bag restrictions. I have $155 in a Super PID for complete router speed control via software and $130 in a Hitachi M12V router. All total, I have spent about $5,685. I do not know of anywhere I could have touched a 4x4 machine for that price. I did not buy mine as a hobby. I am using it in my business to make my living. I hope to get some time to do some playing but thus far, it has been cutting prototype parts to make sure they are going to work before I put them in full production.

I will try to update my build thread over the weekend so you can see what all I did and some of the things I have done with it thus far. If you want to call and ask questions about building a CNC Router Parts kit, please feel free to do so. I would welcome the call and would be happy to share any insight I have as a new CNC operator and recent builder!

My number is 512-738-0775.

[Mick A Martin]

You pay for what you get ..... if you want a Porsche then don't buy a mini, I understand buying a CNC is a lot of money, do your resource visit owners of a CNC BUT don't buy just the cheapest otherwise you will get spite later on.

[William Adams]

Software integration is a non-issue if one doesn't get boxed in w/ a proprietary system (e.g., Carvewright).

A .dxf is the same, no matter what app writes it out, a .stl can be parsed by pretty much any 3D CAM program, and G-code is a standard:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...10.1.1.15.7813
http://www.isd.cme.nist.gov/personne...RS274NGC_3.pdf

[Roy Nielsen]

Art,

As William and Curtis said, the software chain would be largely or wholly the same for most CNCs, the exception being Carvewright. A lot of people use Vectric apps for design and g-code generation; the computer that is used for design does not need to be connected to the CNC and in fact often isn't attached. Mach3 (Windows, ~$175) and LinuxCNC ($free) are the two main CNC g-code interpreters that control the actual CNC; both are suitable and used on home builds as well as commercial machines. Not sure if any modern machines run proprietary controller software.

You might want to look around on cnczone_com. It has a great community for both commercial and DIY users, including hundreds or thousands of build logs. A little searching will uncover a lot of DIY newby questions and answers. Also some occasional samples of projects.

Also look around on Vectric_com's site and especially forum for the types of projects being accomplished. A good number of the people in the forum are using DIY builds.

Roy

[Art Mann]

Thank you Curtis for that very valuable report on the CNCRouterParts kit build and performance. That gives me a little more confidence that the DIY machines would meet my requirements. It also gives me a lot of insight into the "real" cost of building my own machine. I was just looking at their website again and noticed they offer a "pro" kit with upgraded mechanics and electronics. I would like to stick with a single vendor if I build my own. I am not interested in doing an eBay scavenger hunt to build the cheapest machine possible. I am looking forward to seeing your updated build thread.

I mentioned software configuration and integration concerns because that is the number one problem I read about with amateur CNC router builders. It is hard to tell just from the blogs whether a person has valid compatibility issues or is just suffering from a lack of knowledge (or ability). I appreciate all the reassurances that it is close to plug and play between the various software products.

Just as a side note on software, I don't believe Shopbot equipment uses G-code. They use an enhanced proprietary command structure and control system.

Mick, I appreciate your advice but I am not trying to make a living with a CNC router. I am retired and have sufficient income without it. This whole thing started out as a hobby interest. It was only after studying the available equipment and what people are doing with it that I began to think in terms of making money. If I were going to try to produce enough to need a nice machine like you have, I would just go back to work as an electrical engineer. I am struggling to justify buying a machine like the Stinger I.

EDit: One more thing - thank you Curtis for your kind offer to help me out by telephone. I may take you up on that when my plans evolve a little further. I anxiously await the update to your build thread.

[Curtis O. Seebeck]

Your statement about software configuration and integration is exactly why I did as you are considering and bought everything solely from CNC Router Parts. The only thing I did not buy from them was my Super PID and it is not necessary to operate the machine. It just gives you precise speed control of the router from Mach3. I probably could have saved some money by sourcing some of the parts myself but did not know where to begin and wanted something that was plug and play where all I had to do was assemble it. I can say that CNC Router Parts kits are just that. Sure, I may not have an industrial machine but my needs did not call for one and my pocket book certainly did not! I am in a position in life where I am debt free and and would have had to take a loan to afford the $10-3,000 or so for a 4x4 machine already built. Instead, I was willing to put some sweat equity into it to save some money and feel I have a very capable machine that will help my business grow. In the future, if my business has the need for a more robust machine for some reason, I hope this one will help make the money to do so as borrowing the money is not an option for me!

BTW, I was in the exact same position you are in now before my build. I called and talked with a couple folks who have built a similar machine as well as talking with Corey and Ahren at CNC Router Parts. I was still nervous pulling the trigger on so much money but am really glad I did. I just wish I could have afforded to do so a few years ago! A CNC router is like a tractor. If you don't have one, you may think of a couple of uses for it but once you have one, you find all kinds of uses for it you never thought of!

[Art Mann]

I swapped a couple of emails with Corey at CNC Router Parts. I sent him a series of questions and he responded promptly. I am thinking about ordering the new "Pro" series model PRO4824 with NEMA 34 motor kit. According to the specifications, the performance is not far from that of the Camaster Stinger I with the same router or spindle. The cost is somewhere near $1000 less than the Camaster 24 X 32 machine. Before I buy anything, I am going to visit Camaster to see the machine up close and watch it run. I have ruled out Shopbot for the meanwhile because their equivalent machine ("Buddy") is more expensive still.

Once again, I would like to thank everyone for the valuable information. I think this thread is an example of forum discussion at its best.