What contitutes a neanderthal design....

[Jon Olson]

What level of machine usage is allowed for the product to remain a neanderthal design??...I dont see how most of the people posting finished designs in this section are using hand saws for cutting 12' long boards down to size, right?? Is it the use of hand planes, hand cut joints, etc. or is it more than that??

Just thought I'd ask as I look at building a Entertainment center.

jon

[Chris Padilla]

Jon,

Does it really matter? Use whatever methods work for you. That is usually driven by whatever tools you have (or your buddies have! ).

I imagine your EC will have some plywood, right? Well, there you go...the whole "neanderthal-ness" of your EC is deal before it started! hahaha...just pulling your leg here.

I guess that unless you are entering a show in which the use of electrons to build is strictly verboten, it doesn't really matter.

[Steve Cox]

Personlly I think it is a very false dichotomy to label projects Neander or not. We simply use tools, whatever works for the job (or at least I do). My problem with a lot of woodworking today is that many people think that if you can't plug it in (or use a battery) then it is not efficient to use. That I think is wrong, many times hand tools are easier and more efficient than machines but other times they are not (like cutting 12' bords to size).

[Gary Herrmann]

All that being said, just grunt a lot when you're cutting and milling the stock and it will qualify as a neander project.

[Donnie Raines]

I thought anything that did not require electrons would constitute as "neanderlyness" in quailty....

[Jim Becker]

Tough question because it's so subjective. For me, using hand powered tools for some significant proportion of the project qualifies for Neander-ness, especially considering that it's rare that folks don't use some machinery these days, even when they focus on hand tools for much of there work. There is a certain practicality for that when you consider many of us don't have huge chunks of time for our woodworking pursuits, yet really enjoy working with planes, chisels and other traditional tools when we have the opportunity. I do this less than many, but truly enjoy being able to say, "I learned how to..." when there is a chance to do so.

[Tim Sproul]

I guess for truly neander, you'd start by finding some flint rock...


or to be less neander - rubbing 2 sticks together...get yer fire hot around a large bowl shaped stone to smelt iron ore....

Then...pick up a stick and find yer self a lode of iron ore to dig out.

[Robert Weber]

I agree with most, if not all that's already been posted.

However, for the sake of discussion, here's my $0.02. I think that there's a cutoff for what can be called a truely neander project, and I don't think hand-cut joinery cuts it ().

Seriously, if you are using a jointer or planer to you are not working on the dark side. A drill press or router would similarly disqualify one.

I have not, however, disqualified those using band or table saws to dimension their stock, although I've ripped 180 inches of 4/4 oak with a Disston D-23 in the last couple of evenings working on a file cabinet for LOML. That being said, I fully intend to use my Skilsaw on the plywood. If I had used a table saw on that 4/4, I would be done by now, but I'm not in this just for efficiency. I have my day job to beat that into my life. I could hear the radio while I worked, and that was justification enough for me to do it by hand. That and when I was done I felt really satisfied.

I guess that neander is a state of mind. Every woodworker draws the line at a different place. Myself, I would like to wean myself from as much electrickery as I can, and I really couldn't tell you why - it's just something in my gut (and still attached to the end of my hands).

I also think that neanderness will be somewhat dictated by the style you are working in, and sometime space limitations. In my case, I tend to use more neander methods when working in more traditional styles, and more electrical methods when working in more modern styles. Take my office furniture, for instance. It's a modern style with lots of sheet goods. That will be almost entirely cut with the Skilsaw out in the driveway.

Which brings me right to the other point. My workshop is 9x12 (smaller than a one-car garage). If I had to rip a long piece of stock, and I didn't want to do it in the driveway, hand saws are about the only way to go.

Addictive, too.

Hope I've added some fuel to the fire. There are some interesting articles on why people use hand tools linked to from my Knowledge Base > Philosophy and Humor. Check it out.

http://www.jlatech.com/rob/Woodworki...dge%20Base.htm

Hoping to get some shop time in tonight after the kids are in bed to rip another 90", I'm

[Mark Singer]

Who cares use the best tools and methods to achieve the finest results with the least effort....and just call it great crafstmanship!

[Richard Gillespie]

Jon;

As Mark said, who cares? Do what feels good to you. If you want to take a given project from rough cut stock to finish furniture with hand tools, so be it. If you feel that you want to leave the grunt work to the machines, that's your choice. My gut feeling is that the size of the project and materials being used may dictate the processes.

Most of us Neanderthals use a mixture of hand and power tools. I've tried preparation of rough cut stock by hand and now know how to do it. I'd rather use my surface planner, jointer and table saw to do the majority of the preparation and finish it with hand tools. I like doing hand cut dovetails more than using a jig. However, saying that if I have a very large number of dovetails to cut, out comes the jig.

I became interested in working with hand tools for a variety of reasons. The two most important to me were reduction of dust being generated by sanding and the look of stock after finishing with hand planes and scrapers.

You decide and you won't get any criticism from me on your choice.

[Steve Cox]

Amen Mark.

[Steve Wargo]

Don't forget, cabinet shops of old would have had many less apprentices if they had power thickness planers and jointers. Now these tools simply replace the need for apprentices in our small shops, allowing the "Masters" to get a little work done. Man I wish I had a jointer(that didn't say Lie Nielsen) or an apprentice.

[Pete Rowley]

Don't forget, cabinet shops of old would have had many less apprentices if they had power thickness planers and jointers.

Wait, nobody else has their wife and kids mill the stock by hand?

[Michael Perata]

If, on Saturday morning early, you have a chance of watching EITHER Roy Underhill or Norm Abrahms, and you choose Roy - you are heading down the path to Neandertal-ism.

[Jon Olson]

Thanks for your responses...I guess my desire is to understand the neader mindset involved. I was thinking about some of my projects in planning stages and what types of joints and hardware and all of the other thoughts that go into design and then thought about this forum and where (if I finish the ET center before baby #2 comes in Aug) I might post the project. I plan to hand cut the DT jointer, probably the M/T joints also. I have some planes for surfacing - no J/P to use unless Chris finishes his garage... Now, I dont plan to give away my table saw for ripping and CCuts and buying a Disston like Robert (even though my 1948 table saw is considered a Neader device when compared to a sliding table MM combo machine) But I really like the idea of using my hands and being more apart of the building process (plus keeping down on the noise, dust, cash involved in bigger/better/faster tools as others have said)
Well enough of my mind games...I'll focus on the craftmanship and see what tools are available to me. And in the end see where I feel the best place for presentation is. thanks all....you put my mind at ease on this friday afternoon.
Any other thoughts are always welcome.

Jon