Manufacturers and the forums

[Ralph Lindberg]

Robo, I think participation can help. A few years back, on another forum we are both on, the owner of Grizzly was following a thread on their (then) newest lathe. Which we were roasting for a number of issues. He asked for some clarification. He (obviously) took our input to heart as some of the issues got fixed in the next edition of that lathe.

[David DeCristoforo]

I would like to "chime in" on this. First off I would like to relate a couple of fairly recent experiences.

It has to do with a well known turning tool maker who approached me. He told me that he was impressed with my work and wanted to send me some tools to try. Since I spent many years writing about woodworking and tools, I have had a lot of experience with this. But this particular vendor was so blatant in first lavishing praise on me and then insisting that I promote his tools and "become his voice" on the forums that I immediately bailed on him. I have seen posts made under other names that I knew the vendor had written because his writing style was instantly recognizable. And since the he had actually sent me "copy" that he wanted me to post as my own, I knew exactly what was going on. This is a common tactic.

The second thing was when Rick Markham posted a link to the new "Dynamotor" in my "monster lathe" thread. I contacted the manufacturer to inquire about these motors and they ended up offering to send me one to test on the lathe. Ultimately it did not work out because of the low starting torque of the two pole design and I was not able to recommend the motor for use on a lathe. But at no time did the manufacturer attempt to influence my opinion, use me as a "mouthpiece" or stick their own oar in the water.

It should be understood that makers and/or sellers of tools have a vested interest in promoting them. Some are more moderate in their approach than others and will answer questions about their products with a minimum of "sell". But they are still selling and competing. There is no way that you will ever get an objective opinion about a product from the maker or seller of that product. The makers and sellers know this. So many of them will use surreptitious methods. Even those who do not use surreptitious methods are acting in their own self interests. When did you ever hear a seller say "No, you don't want to buy my product. It's not any good."???

So when Keith decided to ban this type of participation, I believe he made the right choice. If a seller or maker wants to promote their stuff, let them pay for ads. Allowing them to directly answer questions about their products might be a not bad idea but it opens the door to all manner of abuse, some subtile, some not so. But like I said, there is no reason for a seller or maker to participate on this level except to promote their products. Let's not kid ourselves about this. If you want real objective input about a particular product, there is no better source than those who have already bought that product and have used it under "real world" conditions. And even there you have to be sure that the review is truly from an objective source and is totally uncompensated. Otherwise, the reviewer is going to be indebted to the manufacturer and that is going to influence the evaluation.

[Mike Cruz]

David, I do understand your point(s). And the ARE good ones, with "proof" to back it up. In the case of Steve and the HTC chucks, there were a number of questions regarding whether inserts were available in certain sizes, could be made, had X feature, would fit other jaws, if it was simply a knock off of a specific name brand chuck, etc. Simply allowing Steve to answer the questions would not be "advertising". Apparently, people didn't want to go to his site, watch his video, or call them himself...they wanted to get their info from the Creek. So, allowing him (as a member), to answer here is actually a benefit to the Creek. When someone searches Google about HTC chucks and gets directed to the Creek because of a thread that has actual answers FROM a member that happens to be the seller, this Site becomes a place of FACTUAL information, not just a place where questions are asked with a bunch of "I don't know" answers...which is not what the Google searcher was looking for. When that person finds his answer here, he says, "Hmmm, what an informative site. I need to go there more often..." And so a new member is born. That is, in effect, how I got here. And I'm sure most other members. We found an answer here, not just more questions and conjecture. I don't tend to become a member on Sites that don't get results. And I would imagine that is a common theme with other question seekers.

That said, again, I do understand what you are saying. I just don't agree that ANY input from a manufacturer is "advertising". Sorry if you didn't use those exact words...

[Dennis Nagle]

I'd never cut myself off from a knowledge base. Bring them on.

[David DeCristoforo]

All I'm saying is that the cards should be on the table. Customer support should be provided by the manufacturer or the vendor and it is not really fair for them to use a forum like SMC for that purpose. If, as a customer, a member wants to praise the manufacturer or vendor, that is the prerogative of the individual member. Likewise if the member has less than positive comments. The idea that any input from a manufacturer is advertising could be argued either way. But it is public exposure of a kind that the manufacturer would otherwise have to pay for. Not fair that SMC should provide this for free. It's not like SMC is a philanthropic entity or one that is pulling down the big bucks.

I remember when I first joined SMC and I replied to a post asking for a general opinion of a certain brand of machinery. I had owned a few pieces of equipment from that manufacturer so I responded, saying that it was, by far, the worst equipment I had ever owned and that the customer support was also the worst I had ever received. Boy did I step in it! Turns out that this particular manufacturer was a big supporter of the forum and that the owner of the company was an active participant. Needless to say, I lived to regret my post! But that's the advertising game. Most information channels are supported by advertising dollars and the one thing you never do is make your advertisers unhappy!

I have to agree with Dennis in that it is counterproductive to cut one's self off from needed information. But why can't these guys provide this information on their own web sites? Or reply to questions directly via PM? The answer is that they can but they get more exposure if it is done publicly. If someone asks for input from users of a particular product and others respond, that's one thing. But having the manufacturer chime in changes the paradigm. As I said before, there is no way for a manufacturer or vendor to participate without acting in their own self interests.

[Mike Cruz]

Most information channels are supported by advertising dollars and the one thing you never do is make your advertisers unhappy!

Therein lies the rub... If a manufacturer supports the Creek with advertising cash, not only can they reply to questions in threads, but we, as members, get bridled on what we can and cannot say regarding said advertiser for fear of losing advertising funds. I fully understand the cost of running a business and running a site. I know this isn't cheap by any means. I understand the need for advertising and the desire to keep a good thing going. I understand that this entire subject is a sensitive one (for all three parties...Keith, advertisers, and members), and plays with a slippery slope.

You have a good point about manufacturers being able to use the PM service to direct answers to specific questions. And I agree that could/should be used more. But then would it be okay for said manufacturer to at least post "PM sent, John." when John asked a question so that other members know that questions do get answered? Or would that still be seen as getting free advertising?

I know this isn't a cut and dry subject. Or at least it isn't "simple".

[David DeCristoforo]

How it would work in a "perfect world":

Someone posts a complaint about a piece of equipment. The manufacturer is watching the forums and sees the post. He PMs the poster and they work to resolve the issue. The manufacturer leaves it to the customer/member to share his experience with the other members. There is no pressure put on the customer/member to do so. In most cases, the now satisfied customer will be back here with a "Wow, those guys really took care of me..." This is worth a fortune to the manufacturer because you cannot buy this kind of advertising. And if the member chooses not to post, the manufacturer will still have a happy customer and he will benefit from this as well as the knowledge that he acted in good faith. The company that builds a reputation in this way will become known for treating their customers right. Do you know Joe Gerrard's "Law of Two Fifty"? In case you don't Joe is a sales guru and his "Law of Two Fifty" is that the average person knows two hundred and fifty other people with similar interests and while those people may never hear about it if the customer is satisfied, they will, to the last one, hear about it if the customer is unhappy. Somewhere in here is a little thing called "ethics", something that we humans seem to be loosing touch with.

[Jerry Marcantel]

Jerry,

You cannot announce new products or promote sales here. Should we allow one person do do so would require us to allow everyone the same privileges. If you have a financial interest in any tool, product or service you are not allowed to participate in any discussion concerning your interests. This is stated in our Terms of Service.

E. Commercial Advertising
1. Direct Commercial Affiliation
SawmillCreek maintains an active advertising and marketing program. As such, we seek to provide a non-competitive atmosphere for our advertisers by disallowing commercial posts from our members. Posts made by Members with direct commercial affiliation, and with the apparent intent of using SawMill Creek for the sole purpose of promoting a product or service will be subject to removal. Members with direct commercial affiliation are defined to be those Members who stand to benefit financially from such a promotion.

All of the rules here are based on what is best for the majority. They are not my rules, this is what has been dictated to me from the Members of this Community over the last ten years. There are a few that disagree with various policies here but the majority fully support our Terms of Service and they are the first to report violations of the rules.

I don't recall removing a post just because someone mentioned a certain area, there must have been other details involved in the situation. For the record I am not as strict as the Members of this Community are, for instance I am not opposed to allowing commercial posts in our Classifieds Forum but the Members here disagree. I would prefer we didn't have an Off-Topic Forum but the Members here feel differently so I yield to a majority preference. Matters concerning our financial obligations are mine to decide because I am responsible for paying the bills and I have to sign the contracts. The day to day regulations here are based entirely on the will of this Community and i should remind everyone that our mission is to provide a space where woodworkers can gather together and share their experience and love of the craft. It is not a primary goal of this Community to interface with commercial interests directly.

So Keith, what I'm reading into your answer to me is that if I come up with a totally new tool that will prevent a lot of grief, I can't even show it??? So far, I've designed a Chuck Plate, and posted directions on how to make it. I didn't say I had any for sale until someone contacted me through private mail. I then upgraded the Chuck Plate to aluminum, and sold a bunch of those through PM. I don't think I said they were for sale. All I was doing was letting people know there is an easier way to do things, and from the reactions I've gotten, it probably is a better way.

I've been working on another tool for tenon removal that will make all the other hold downs seem like ancient tools, and I can't show it????? Innovation is not approved of here?? Is that what you're telling me?

As far as you not recalling removing any posts, it's because you might remove a lot, but I remember because it's the only one I've ever had removed. It concerned me asking if there were any woodturners in the Branson, Missouri area as I had a friend who wanted to know if his idea could be done. If it could, he would have purchased a lathe and possibly joined this club, but you removed my post stating I was wanting something, like it was an advertisement. I even wrote you through a pm, and you ignored that...... That's the day I decided I would not become a contributor............. Jerry (in Tucson)

[John Altberg]

Jerry,

If you want to advertise on the internet, pay to host your OWN website and have at it!

[Jerry Marcantel]

Jerry,

If you want to advertise on the internet, pay to host your OWN website and have at it!

John, I didn't join this site to sell tools. It was to learn. I haven't yet advertised here. I'm proud of my abilities to be able to solve a problem by making something that will allow me to complete a project from start to finish without the fear of a mishap on the lathe. After perfecting my innovations, all I want to do is share it with others so they might be able to remove some of the fear factor encounterd by every turner on this site. If that's bad, it's not good policy. I thought showcasing safety was the proper and humane thing to do................ Jerry

[Reed Gray]

Well, this has been pretty interesting. Seems to me like there are a lot of grey areas.

One is about manufacturers being banned from commenting on their areas of expertise/interests. Does this mean that Vince can't comment about abrasives and sanding? Can Dave Schweitzer not make comments about CBN wheels? Are both Doug and Dave banned from making comments about tool steel? How about the Doctor making comments about the chemistry of walnut oil finishes? Am I banned from making comments about coring systems since I have a DVD out?

I think we all want discussion about products. This is a great service to both the customers, and to the manufacturers. Mostly because we both need feedback, and opinions. Surely, some are more lacking in scruples than others, and will go to great lengths to get around rules (pathetic/funny story DD). I can appreciate how Keith can find himself in a difficult place as an administrator here. Not a position I would want to place myself into. And, no, I don't have all the answers.

I have tried, several times to explain things because a manufacturer didn't feel it was proper for them to chime in with their expertise, and am worried that I won't explain it correctly, which is why I feel it is important to get some of their direct feedback.

I guess there is also, for those of us who sell a few things to support our habits, and not to make a living off of, how do we introduce our products at a cost we can afford, and not break the rules? And, then for Keith, you would face the problem of where do you draw the lines of what is advertising, and what is information?

Yikes, this makes my head hurt!!!!

robo hippy

[Mike Cruz]

I would call this a "Gray" area. Thanks for bringing that (and the rest of your post) up, Reed. I suppose that is where I am concerned as well. Heck, what about Jeff Nicol. He's made how many steady rests and tool rests for Creekers and others. Yet he's allowed (and I believe rightfully so!) to post if someone had questions about a or his steady rest. Why? Because he has proven himself to be a trustworthy and honest member of this community. So, what is different about Jeff piping up in a thread about his (or another) steady rest and Steve piping up about a thread about his chuck? As long as neither started the thread (or HAD someone start the thread), I simply don't see it as a problem. I see how Keith might, but as Reed said, I'm not asking to be in his shoes, either.

BUT consistency is the point. I'm not trying, by any means, to keep Jeff from being able to post in a thread about his or other steady rests, but if he is allowed, then others must be, too.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Reed,

It's the devil in the details.

.....and it's the grey areas that make moderating these things difficult too.

and it's also the attitude that people display when they get edited that make things difficult too!

There are a few manufacturers that have displayed the ability to focus their comments on providing technical detail, recommendations, adjustment procedures and generic comments without advertising their products. These same people typically gracefully accept the editing or deletions of those posts that the staff here deem contained advertising. What sets these few person apart is they can take the actions and or criticisms as a result of perceived advertising in a friendly manner. In other words, they don't try get into a heated debate, they just let it go. They remain rational.

There are others who are so emotionally involved, so bigoted with respect to their product or services that they become irrational and attack the administrators or moderators or anyone else with a differing opinion and have lost their posting privileges.

It's one thing to provide technical specifications or technical procedures. It becomes a totally different situation when the same person begins to make comparisons between their product or chosen design and that of another manufacturer. Now it becomes a slippery slope.

A lot of new members may not have been around when SMC was close to being shutdown or sold to a large company. Through the efforts of one of the Moderators, the membership contribution method of financing was developed to keep the place alive. Later even that didn't provide enough income to pay the bills and Keith instituted the paid advertising addition.

I have never met Keith and Jackie Outten face-to-face. I hope to change that in the next couple weeks while I am in the Norfolk area visiting family. I am not privy to, don't want to be privy to nor have any reason to know the financial numbers of SMC BUT...I would bet that paid advertising pays more bills than membership contributions. Why would any company pay for advertisement on SMC if they were given free unfettered access to SMC and could advertise gratis?

There are also other issues that play dramatically in these situations that most members may not realize. In at least one case, manufacturers have filed lawsuits against another as a result of threads here at SMC. Keith has had to provide copies of those threads for that lawsuit.

It's unreasonable to suggest that manufacturers be given unrestricted access to SMC. It would also become a nightmare to moderate and try to control that type of access.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mike,

To the best of my knowledge, Jeff has never made his steady rests a commercial enterprise or publicly advertised them for sale. I think he has just made one here or one there for fellow Creekers. Correct me if I am wrong.

I don't see this any different than me stating that I sold some bottle stoppers, pens or a bowl at flea market.


Consistency is a matter of personal opinion and perception.

[Mike Cruz]

I don't think Jerry was looking to make his "tool/invention" a commercial enterprise, either. Just wanted to post it, and if anyone wanted one, he'd make them one. That is what it sounded like to me, but the idea seemed to get shot down before start up. That said, maybe it should have been brought up in a PM with Keith so that it could all get ironed out before anyone else knew about it. But, at least from what Jerry said, Keith didn't respond to Jerry's last PM, so I can understand why he may not have.

I think Jeff's made a "few" steadys and tool rests for Creekers. Let's say more than a "few". I know of 3 people within an hour's drive with them... But I don't want to put him in a hot spot. As a close friend, I don't want to drag him through this. Sorry that I brought him up.