Manufacturers and the forums

[Reed Gray]

I was chatting with Brad Packard, of Packard Woodworks yesterday asking about the new CBN wheel from Woodcut, and a few other things. I know that all the manufacturers scan the forums, but many don't comment. The main reason is they don't feel it is appropriate for them to do so because of their professional interests. Probably part of that is because of natural bias towards their products. Personally, as long as they follow the general rules of the forums, I welcome their comments, mostly because they can explain things that they know more about than I ever will.

How do the rest of you feel?

robo hippy

[Doug Herzberg]

I'd welcome them too, as long as they disclose their relationship with the manufacturer. Problem would be if they had an honest criticism of the product and felt they couldn't speak their mind without losing their jobs. Most companies want that kind of talk handled by official spokespersons. I have received PMs from sales people about particular products after posting a question.

[Roger Chandler]

I do not mind if a vendor answers some questions related to their product or clears up some misconception or misinformation that may be stated by someone......sometimes because the poster is uninformed or whatever. That being said, it is my feeling that if they want to advertise their product by means of the forums, then they should purchase an add and everyone should see it for what it is.

Because turners do frequent the forums to get information on products at times [they want to see if others have used it and what kind of experience was had by those users] we all have to be careful that our own advocacy for a particular product we use does not turn into a means of commercial promotion for some manufacturer or vendor.

I am fine with someone stating their experience with a product............for example, I was one of the first to get one of the 18/47 Grizzly lathes....I did a review on AAW and other forums and a lot of discussion was generated..........never one time was I approached by Grizzly or anyone else for that matter to "promote" that lathe. I only gave my honest and full experience to those who inquired. I also got numerous phone calls from around the country about it.........again only offered my opinion and experience with it.

I had a couple of guys accuse me of being on Grizzly's payroll! Never, ever, have I even had a conversation with them related to promoting anything .....although I do believe they are aware of my comments.

Same way with my CBN wheel from D-Way......only my personal experience with it...........I believe that is perfectly fine!

[Brian Kent]

I also expect and appreciate when people representing manufacturers are respectful of other manufacturer's products.

[Thom Sturgill]

I tend to agree Reed.

I think, however, that manufacturers and marketing companies should take out 'sponsor' accounts and reply to questions about THEIR or OTHERS merchandise using that account. On the other hand, they could have personal accounts for general comments on turnings, etc. as long as they are not using those accounts to comment on products.

Like Roger, I've commented on products I've owned or used but have never been approached by a vendor either here or in my prior career in IT, though I do know turners who have approached vendors and made such arrangements.

[Keith Outten]

It is difficult for a company representative to make comments here that are not interpreted as promotion of their products or services. Our official policy here is that we only allow our advertisers to post and they are limited to the Deals And Discounts Forum. We make every effort to keep our woodworking forums a non-commercial space for you to enjoy without in your face advertising. Advertising is limited to our sponsors, those who offer FreeStuff Prizes and our Friends of the Creek.

We openly invite all woodworkers to join our Community BUT we ask that they leave their corporate association at the door. The benefits to this policy far outweigh the risk of having our Community disrupted by those whose only interest is promotion. We must attract advertisers if we are to continue to keep all of our primary woodworking forums open with free access so we hope that the majority of you will support our advertisers when you have the opportunity.
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[Brian Finney]

Perhaps what is needed is a new descriptor of Technical Expert ie Contributor, Member and Technical Expert. Technical experts would provide FACT ONLY. We have enough opinions to go around already

[Curt Fuller]

I think you get better info and feedback from the regular old everyday members here. If they like something they're pretty quick to say something about it. If they don't they're usually just as quick. But you still have to weigh what you read, consider the source, and weed out the extremes. There's plenty of other places to find manufacturer's opinions and information.

[Mike Cruz]

I have to respectfully disagree with Keith on this. When I had posted about the Hurricane HTC chucks, there were a LOT of questions. Ones that I didn't know the answer to. Steve chimed in (he's been a member for a while, so it wasn't that he joined to talk about chucks) and answered questions.

I know that a post of his got edited because I got a notification of his post in a that thread. But I couldn't find it in the thread. I got to read what he had written in his post. What he wrote could have been useful to people. He was simply answering questions that were being asked and/or telling people that they can visit his site/watch his you tube video to get the answers. I found his participation in the thread very useful and helpful. I haven't seen him post since...

I also found it very helpful when Shiraz would post on some Grizzly threads.

It isn't as if these guys were starting threads about their stuff, or plugging how incredibly awesome their tools are. Rather giving input and answering questions that people are asking. Sure, they could call Shiraz and Steve directly. But they aren't. They are asking on a public forum. So, I believe that not letting them hinders the flow of the threads, and makes this forum less informative, factual, and useful. If nothing else, having the manufacturers input to direct questions (THEIR choice to do so, by all means not mandatory) makes this site more legit...it is therefore not all conjecture, accusations, opinions, and guessing.

Just my two cents on the subject.

[Roger Chandler]

I too appreciated the info that Steve provided on the HTC chucks.........his answers made me consider purchasing one........which I eventually did. Had he not answered questions and factually so, I for one would have missed out on getting a quality chuck at a very good price. What he did in my opinion was very helpful, and in my mind did not violate any rules [at least that I am aware of] and I think there is a difference from pure promotion and the service provided by giving info on the questions raised by the members of the SMC community!

I think Keith and other mods could allow some things, but if it crosses the line, then they could step in!

[Keith Outten]

Mike,

There is merit to your point of view however unauthorized advertising is either on or off. It is impossible to control when you allow advertising under some circumstances and not others. There are 73,840 registered Members here as of this morning and it is difficult enough to Moderate our Forums now, I doubt that you would even know this place if we allowed anyone to advertise at will.

Commercial exposure here is extremely valuable because we are a very high traffic site. Our Staff is constantly editing posts and removing threads that are nothing more than unauthorized advertising. To ask them to provide even more coverage would make the job impossible if we had to try to determine when a vendor was providing valuable information versus plugging their products.

Our advertisers probably would not appreciate seeing their competitors post for free when they pay for the privilege. We cannot possibly pay the bills here without advertising support, there are so few Contributors we would have to close off all free access if our advertising support decreased. We recently started offering Manufacturers Forums again to those companies who have annual advertising accounts so there is a way for commercial organizations to be active here but it isn't free. Of course I can't walk into their showrooms and just take the tools I want for free either.

This week Aaron will be taking The Creek offline to upgrade our server. I spent several thousand dollars on this upgrade and our monthly bandwidth bill is about to increase substantially as we increase the size of our pipe. The six dollar per year donations won't even cover these costs, much less the labor costs and other business expenses after PayPal, the State and the Federal Governments get their piece of the pie.
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[Robert Henrickson]

I would think that as long as manufacturers clearly identified themselves as such, and were responding to questions (or complaints), that it would be helpful. If information is dispassionately provided by the maker, surely that is useful rather than forcing the discussion to be secondhand reports of what a maker has told a SMC member.

Where answers might go over the line into advocacy (advertising) would ultimately be a judgement call. Moderators can deal with such problems should they arise.

Along this line -- If manufacturers are to be restrained, what about the passionate advocates of specific tool lines, especially when that person clearly has a close personal relationship (saying so explicitly) with a manufacturer? That would seem more problematic than having a manufacturer simply answering questions or complaints. This problem does NOT apply to the discussions of Hurricane chucks, which instead has illustrated the usefulness of having firsthand responses.

[Jerry Marcantel]

Next month, 7 -13 I'm going to post on a new tool that I'd like to think I'm the inventer of. It will have pictures, and a good description of it's advantages to other methods of completing turnings. I am hoping it will make some of other other tools obsolete that do the same thing, while trying not to be bashing those tools. I'm not going to offer sales, but if some are interested, of course, I'll do everything to sell some.
I'm wondering how that will go over with you Keith, as you once pulled one of my posts for just asking if someone lived in a certain area??............. Jerry (in Tucson)

[Keith Outten]

Jerry,

You cannot announce new products or promote sales here. Should we allow one person do do so would require us to allow everyone the same privileges. If you have a financial interest in any tool, product or service you are not allowed to participate in any discussion concerning your interests. This is stated in our Terms of Service.

E. Commercial Advertising
1. Direct Commercial Affiliation
SawmillCreek maintains an active advertising and marketing program. As such, we seek to provide a non-competitive atmosphere for our advertisers by disallowing commercial posts from our members. Posts made by Members with direct commercial affiliation, and with the apparent intent of using SawMill Creek for the sole purpose of promoting a product or service will be subject to removal. Members with direct commercial affiliation are defined to be those Members who stand to benefit financially from such a promotion.

All of the rules here are based on what is best for the majority. They are not my rules, this is what has been dictated to me from the Members of this Community over the last ten years. There are a few that disagree with various policies here but the majority fully support our Terms of Service and they are the first to report violations of the rules.

I don't recall removing a post just because someone mentioned a certain area, there must have been other details involved in the situation. For the record I am not as strict as the Members of this Community are, for instance I am not opposed to allowing commercial posts in our Classifieds Forum but the Members here disagree. I would prefer we didn't have an Off-Topic Forum but the Members here feel differently so I yield to a majority preference. Matters concerning our financial obligations are mine to decide because I am responsible for paying the bills and I have to sign the contracts. The day to day regulations here are based entirely on the will of this Community and i should remind everyone that our mission is to provide a space where woodworkers can gather together and share their experience and love of the craft. It is not a primary goal of this Community to interface with commercial interests directly.

[Keith Outten]

Along this line -- If manufacturers are to be restrained, what about the passionate advocates of specific tool lines, especially when that person clearly has a close personal relationship (saying so explicitly) with a manufacturer? That would seem more problematic than having a manufacturer simply answering questions or complaints. This problem does NOT apply to the discussions of Hurricane chucks, which instead has illustrated the usefulness of having firsthand responses.

Robert,

You hit the nail right on the head. Over 90% of the problems we have concerning unauthorized advertising is from Members of this Community who have some kind of personal relationship or professional agreement with a company whose goal is to use our resources for their commercial gain. Sometimes these are passionate advocates as you call them or what I call forum trolls. I consider this activity in the same class as theft and in the rare cases that I can prove it beyond a doubt I will take extraordinary measures against the company involved.

I should clarify that I do not include those who are very happy customers or those who are passionate about a tool they purchased and love to use. I have my own favorite machines and I enjoy hearing from those who feel the same about the tools they own and enjoy.
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