Cost of Carbide vs HSS

[Jeff Willaford]

Has anyone determined the relative cost of using carbide vs HSS tools?

Since carbide turning tools on the market today are relatively new… has anyone projected, beyond the initial price of the tool, how many carbide cutters may be needed to match the life of a HSS tool and what the overall costs might be?

I’m not promoting anything either way but I am curious. You comments will be appreciated.

[Gene Hintze]

I use both carbide and HSS and I would have to believe that over time the carbide tools will cost significantly more simply because of the cost of replacing the cutters. That said there are both expensive and less expensive options when it come to carbide tools and cutters. I won't get into naming specific carbide tool and cutter manufacturers but I guess you can PM me for my thoughts on that. I do all my rough turning on bowls with carbide. For finish turning the outside is done with carbide and the inside with HSS. If I need to undercut a rim I use carbide. That process seems to work for me and my use of HSS has increased over time as I have gained my experience and understanding of what I can and can't do with each type of tool.

[Jerry Marcantel]

My thoughts on the difference of carbide verses HHS. I aqquired 3 carbide tools at the beginning of the year, and have used those 3 tools exclusively with very rare occasions using HHS when I'm turning something with bark or a lot of bug tracks on or in it. In that time period, I've turned about 40 items. I've found that at least for me, there is a whole lot less tear out using carbide, therefore increasing my output with less sanding.
The drawback to using carbide is the cost when you dull the carbide, but with all the diamond plate sharening tools availible, you can sharpen them in minutes, and keep your costs down. I finally sharpened mine, and they are now almost 100% of what they were when I first got them.
A friend that is a machinist uses a diamond lap disc used in lapidary to sharpen all his tools....... I thought that was ingenious as you're not limited to going to a woodworking supply to get whatever you need for sharpening.... Jerry (in Tucson)

[Thom Sturgill]

One of the things I found hardest to learn was WHEN to sharpen because the HSS lost its keen edge so fast. What you do not mention is the Vanadium steel or Powder Metal steels. These seem to be a midpoint between M2 HSS and the carbides, both in cost and edge holding. A CBN wheel will sharpen them very sharp and they hold that edge quite a while, while matrix wheels tend to be a bit unsatisfactory, esp once you've used a CBN wheel.

Early Carbides (and cheap ones) often do not sharpen as well as the newer types, though they kept an acceptable edge for a very long time when compared to M2 HSS.

What you are asking for is a cost vs price analysis and that would be interesting to see if anyone has done such. Problem is that the carbide holder should last forever while the M2 HSS and the PM blades get shorter each time you sharpen. You could base the cost on the time a PM tool would last. How many M2 tools would you wear out in that time and how many carbides would you replace (+cost of holder). Of course those answers are going to vary from user to user depending on how (and how much) they use the tools as well as whether they re-sharpen the carbides or simply replace them. Pro turners might decide that the re-sharpening is not cost effective while hobbyists would probably try to save pennies (dollars!!) by resharpening. Another issue is the fact that many users use both, but for different purposes so the comparison is apples to oranges.

[John Keeton]

...I have gained my experience and understanding of what I can and can't do with each type of tool.

Another issue is the fact that many users use both, but for different purposes so the comparison is apples to oranges.

Jeff, let me preface this with an acknowledgement that I do not own any carbide tools. However, it seems that a simple cost analysis may not be relevant to most folks, as many turners use specific tools for specific tasks. I am sure the carbide has its place, and given the popularity, many people use them. Some, like Jerry, may use them in place of other tools, so a comparison might have meaning for those folks.

[Brian Ashton]

Has anyone determined the relative cost of using carbide vs HSS tools?

Since carbide turning tools on the market today are relatively new… has anyone projected, beyond the initial price of the tool, how many carbide cutters may be needed to match the life of a HSS tool and what the overall costs might be?

I’m not promoting anything either way but I am curious. You comments will be appreciated.

I used to turn urns as part of my work and used carbide and HSS tips on the hook tools over the years... The internal space of the urns were 200 cubic inches each and made mostly out of red oak. I could get two urns hogged out with one carbide tip before it needed to be filed with a diamond hone. When it started to produce only dust or fine sawdust it was time to refile... After sharpening they lose that sticky sharp feel real quick but hold a useable edge for a long time. As opposed to HSS, generally I needed to resharpen about 1/2 to 2/3 into one urn depending on where the HSS originated. i.e. Indian HSS was short lived compared to Sheffield steel.

[Wayne Hendrix]

As long as you use one of the carbide tools that has a flat topped insert, which is basically all of them, you can sharpen the insert by simply placing it top side down on one of the diamond credit card type sharpeners. Put your finger on it and move it in a figure-8 pattern then turn the insert 90 degrees and do the figure-8 again.

Also, you can make your own tools with a grinder, a lathe, a drill and tap, and a file. I bought an EWT insert at Woodcraft for $16, a 1/2" x 36" steel bar for $15 and a Walnut tool handle blank from CSUSA for $5. I also bought a copper pipe coupling to use as the ferrule but I didn't need to because the handle blank came with a brass one, I just liked the copper color with the walnut. Total cost was under $40 and I can get 5 tools from the bar, so it actually works out to about $23-25 per tool.

Ci1R2 Tool Handle.jpg

edit: I should mention that over a long period of time I think they will even out cost wise, carbide inserts will have to be replaced but so will HSS tools. Carbide tools are more upfront, unless you make them like I did, but have a lower ongoing cost. HSS tools are less upfront but it is the same or more when you go to replace them.

Also, for me in wasn't so much about the cost as the time. I make mostly pens and having to sharpen between every pen or sometimes multiple times per pen is what caused me to start using carbide. I have only sharpened once in several weeks, and that was only because I was making a handle for a rocker blotter and needed to touch up my parting tool with the diamond hone. I haven't turned my grinder on in a while.

[Brian Ashton]

Didn't read the thread to closely when I responded earlier.

Carbide will be more expensive in the long run when you consider the effort and equipment to resharpen it: The effort expended to sharpen is higher in time - probably double. You have to use diamond stones; special grinding wheels to sharpen it (that shouldn't be used for any other grinding purposes). The clean up of the project surface will need to be considered. HSS will hold a razor sharp edge longer that cuts the fibres well leaving a clean surface where as carbide tends to lose that sticky sharp edge very quickly. Therefore the surface needs a bit more attention to get it to a finished quality.

On the oak urns I only hogged out the inside with carbide because it left a fairly rough surface by comparison. YMMV

[steve worcester]

As long as you use one of the carbide tools that has a flat topped insert, which is basically all of them....

For the "poke and stroke" tools, like an Easywood, they use that type of flat top insert. But a flat top scrapes and is less efficient in it's material removal. With Hunter tools and that type of round insert, it has a gullet and is far better at cutting than scraping. But for use in a gouge replacement application, the gouge still does a better job of stock removal and versatility.With a lot of practice, it cuts as clean too.

Understand all of these tools use existing carbide inserts from the metal and plastic manufacturing industry. The Easywood type of tools use a helical planer blade insert. Most of the others use what would be used for Aluminum or plastic fabrication and about the only affordable modification for use in woodturning is fine edge that comes from polishing.

In the interest of full disclosure, I do sell Thompson and Hunter, and have done a fair amount of research in coming up with carbon replacements for woodturning tools that I use.