Milling - why can't you plane the first board face?

[Mel Fulks]

Well said,Chris.

[Mark Wooden]

Chris Fournier said-

This entire thread is a bit ridiculous as folks try to refute simple machining principles because they "believe" that "there's more than one way to do this". All inclusive is just fine when it comes to accomdodation. I will joint and plane rough lumber to S4S impossibly faster than any of these other suggested techniques and it will be S4S.

+1 with Chris.
Flatten, joint, plane. It's that simple. Good work is many times easier with good stock, and good stock is flat and square. Get a jointer.

[Frank Drew]

"Does everyone have a jointer width that equals their planer? Do you have a 20 inch jointer to accomodate your 20 inch planer? I don't think so. What then?"

Chris touched on this briefly, but there's really no accepted, nor necessary, connection between the size of your jointer and thickness planers; you have what tools you have and you make them work for you. I will say, though, that I don't think I've ever been is a shop that didn't have a thickness planer that was wider than their jointer, certainly no commercial shop (where 30" seems about minimum planer size). Which is why it's common practice in many commercial shops to face plane stock wider than their jointer by flipping end for end after every pass (assuming they don't have more sophisticated machinery to accomplish this task -- e.g. Oliver's mighty Strait-O-Plane).

[Chris Fournier]

"Does everyone have a jointer width that equals their planer? Do you have a 20 inch jointer to accomodate your 20 inch planer? I don't think so. What then?"

Chris touched on this briefly, but there's really no accepted, nor necessary, connection between the size of your jointer and thickness planers; you have what tools you have and you make them work for you. I will say, though, that I don't think I've ever been is a shop that didn't have a thickness planer that was wider than their jointer, certainly no commercial shop (where 30" seems about minimum planer size). Which is why it's common practice in many commercial shops to face plane stock wider than their jointer by flipping end for end after every pass (assuming they don't have more sophisticated machinery to accomplish this task -- e.g. Oliver's mighty Strait-O-Plane).

I've never heard nor seen practiced flip-facing wide stock in a planer in a commercial shop. I certainly have used alternative methods to flatten one face of a flitch before we put it through our planer but never flip-facing. In most instances this would leave you with a smooth potato chip, unusable. I have used a 24" jointer and 36" jointer/planer combo and I can say that anything reaching the capacity of the 24" machine required a few guys to operate and the 36" beast more of the same.

In practice your jointer does not need to have the same capacity as your planer although it would be nice when using a single flitch or wide piece of lumber. For the most part (especially in commercial shops or when making western style furniture) wide laminations are made up of smaller pieces. The jointer planer process gives you S4S components that are then very easy to glue up into the wider finished panel. It is at the glue up stage using S4S that care is taken to ensure that faces are registered and no twist, bowing etc. is introduced into the panel by poor technique. Now this wide panel can be flip-faced in a planer, taken to the stroke or belt sander etc. and you will have a flat panel.

Another technique that works well to flatten large flitches is to carefully rip them down to manageable size and then rebuild the flitch once it is machined. I've done this many times and finding the rip cut glue line is very tough if you don't know that it's there.

You simply can't manhandle really large pieces of wood against a giant jointer, we aren't strong enough. Look at the build of a planer, all of this machine is designed to overcome the forces of the cutterhead.

When I first started making guitars I had an 8" jointer and a 20" planer. My electric and acoustic guitars were 12.75" to 16" wide. I didn't need a wider jointer to build guitars. I bought larger equipment when I started building more furniture.

[Frank Drew]

I've never heard nor seen practiced flip-facing wide stock in a planer in a commercial shop. In most instances this would leave you with a smooth potato chip, unusable.

You do understand that I'm talking about face jointing, on the jointer, right? If so, then I can't imagine what you mean by ending up with a "smooth potato chip" when preparing stock this way. Through the surface planer, sure: put a curve board in and you'll get a curved board out, but face jointing on a jointer wouldn't give you those results.

You'll just have to accept that flipping end for end when flattening one face on the jointer is not an uncommon practice; I certainly didn't come up with it myself.

[johnny means]

Can we distinguish between flipping end for end, a flawed technique used for flattening on a planer, and spinning end for end, a flawed technique used for face jointing stock that is wider than your jointer? The problem when spinning a board end for end on a jointer is that there is no guarantee that your two flattened areas are parallel or coplaner.

[Chris Fournier]

Can we distinguish between flipping end for end, a flawed technique used for flattening on a planer, and spinning end for end, a flawed technique used for face jointing stock that is wider than your jointer? The problem when spinning a board end for end on a jointer is that there is no guarantee that your two flattened areas are parallel or coplaner.

I would agree with Johnny wholeheartedly.

[Frank Drew]

Can we distinguish between flipping end for end, a flawed technique used for flattening on a planer

Until this thread, I'd never heard of tying to flatten stock through the (surface) planer with this method, and can't imagine how it would work as intended, but if someone actually does it and wants to explain the technique, I'm all ears.

...and spinning end for end, a flawed technique used for face jointing stock that is wider than your jointer? The problem when spinning a board end for end on a jointer is that there is no guarantee that your two flattened areas are parallel or coplaner.

I suppose there's really no "guarantee" of anything in woodworking, but how about accepting my word that I, and many others, have a lot of experience doing this, it works just fine for most boards that need some flattening prior to thickness planing, I know the difference between flat and not flat, well-prepared stock and not, etc.

As a general rule, if you're not comfortable with a procedure, don't do it until you are; if you're actually not all that familiar with a procedure, it's probably best not to call it "flawed" until you know a bit more about it.

[Prashun Patel]

Boards are out of flat in several ways. I wouldn't use a planer to 'joint' a twisted or bowed board. But it can work sometimes on a cupped board - with light passes. It may not work all the time and on everyone's planer, but it seems to work fine for me SOMETIMES.

I also use the spin method for jointing away twist. I always thought it works because it cuts the high corners in succession and eventually gets to a point where you can joint the whole face. I happened upon this flawed technique by accident when I used to try to joint away twist by working the same direction over and over again until I got a nice tapered board. That is probably my bad technique. But spinning subsidizes me to acceptable results.

I often feed things through the planer just because it feels safer to me with a heavy piece.

I'm not saying it works for everything, but I think it's misleading to suggest because it isn't professional practice or perfect every time that it's also inappropriate all the time.

[Chris Fournier]

Boards are out of flat in several ways. I wouldn't use a planer to 'joint' a twisted or bowed board. But it can work sometimes on a cupped board - with light passes. It may not work all the time and on everyone's planer, but it seems to work fine for me SOMETIMES.

I also use the spin method for jointing away twist. I always thought it works because it cuts the high corners in succession and eventually gets to a point where you can joint the whole face. I happened upon this flawed technique by accident when I used to try to joint away twist by working the same direction over and over again until I got a nice tapered board. That is probably my bad technique. But spinning subsidizes me to acceptable results.

I often feed things through the planer just because it feels safer to me with a heavy piece.

I'm not saying it works for everything, but I think it's misleading to suggest because it isn't professional practice or perfect every time that it's also inappropriate all the time.

Prashun, two things I can tell you about good technique:

It requires no defense.
It yields proper results.

How you choose to work in your shop is certainly your business and I take no umbradge with that, I do however feel that we have a responsibilty on the web to advocate sound work practices and this is my position in this thread.

[Mel Fulks]

Some flattening methods using only an electric planer can improve a board that will be nailed as trim etc. But for something like a table leaf or top where pieces will be edge glued ,only facing before planing is going to be sure to work. We have all seen such tops glued up from twisted wood ,flat on one end and flared up in a v on the other end. Glue joints perhaps failing. It's best to learn good methods and only try short cuts where precision is not required . Failures will cost time and material.

[Ken Bryden]

Scott. Read my article , "From Trees to Boards" in this forum, and a later comment.
Ken Bryden

[Doug Garson]

There's another way to use a 6" jointer to joint wider stock. With the guard removed (proceed at your own risk yada yada) you should be able to run say an 8" board over the cutterhead and joint 6" of the board to be flat. Now with that jointed face down and a 6" wide piece of plywood in filling in the jointed section, run it through the planer to plane the full width of the board. Once that's done, flip it over and finish plane the jointed face. This may not work on your particular jointer.

Had to read it twice to understand what you meant (second pass thru planer not jointer )but makes sense. If you flip the board end for end and run it thru the jointer again you will be running it opposite to the grain which could cause tear out. If the board was 12" wide would you hot melt glue it to the plywood for the second pass thru the planer?

[Matt Day]

1.5 year old thread mind you....

Doug - I think you misread my post. You joint one side partially, plane the other side with a plywood filler, flip and plane the remaining part of the board that you didn't joint. Pick whatever grain direction you want every time.

I wouldn't do a 12" board on a 6" jointer, it's pushing it on an 8" but I've done it.

[Roger Pozzi]

I think the best answer is from another current thread here.