Disappointed with Grobet USA Files

[David Weaver]

I have definitely never found a vintage file around here that wasn't used to death. nearly 700k hand cut files is unreal, but even at that, I'll bet they were really expensive and used long after we'd throw ours out now. Most of the older files I've seen around here (that probably were used in tool and die shops, or jobber shops) are so worn out they barely even abrade wood.

[David Weaver]

Bahco files came yesterday. They are superbly cut compared to the grobets, and the teeth are little bit more coarse on them. I hope they work as good as they look, because I can't fault anything about them at all visually. I've had the bahcos before half a decade ago, but I don't remember what I thought about them in use, and I was probably heavy handed enough at that time trying to restore saws quickly that none of the files lasted that well.

Price on the bahcos was an issue for me. A lot of places want big bucks, and when I was looking, google linked up a paul sellers post that said that they were about $16.50 in the UK, but he had very high marks for their performance in use.

There is a site called autotoolworld that came up through google and between 10 4 inch x slim files and and 10 7 inch slim taper files, the average price was about $4.50 per. A total steal for how well they are cut.

The only catch is auto tool world wrote me back after my order (I ordered a half dozen of each) and said they were only available in quantities of 10, which turns out to be the bahco box size. I don't care, for that price, I'd have taken 20 if that was the minimum order.

No affiliation, just a place that satisfied my drive for thrift. I did have a back and forth via email with auto-tool-world when I ordered (where they said they weren't stocking the files, but I could order through one of their sister sites if I was willing to go with 10 files per size) and they were courteous and there was no funny business.

(and, btw, they are drop shipping as far as I can tell, as my box actually said "williams tool" on it. I'd go right to the source, as that's a part of snap on, and the auto tool world site is pretty hard to navigate, but I can't find anything going that route).

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks,David. I was wondering if anyone had seen my post. The numbers were just for the files made for saw sharpening ,but they also made other kinds. They were shipped in small bundles wrapped in paper and tied with string.I know I saw some for sale,don't remember where.

[David Weaver]

Would you use them if you found them? If I found three, I'd probably have to use one and keep the other two.

[Mike Allen1010]

Those are good files. I just don't favor their price..

.. let me expand on that.

I hold some files in case I buy an old saw and the teeth need to be adjusted. Otherwise, once a saw is in good shape, I could stretch a decent saw file for at least 10 sharpenings as long as I don't get into this goofiness of heavy jointing every time you file a saw.

But when you're restoring a saw that needs its teeth to be moved around, you tend to be a little more heavy handed, and the price difference between the good files and the great files just doesn't materialize, especially on older saws that might have a hard patch from uneven hardening, and torch an expensive file in a few pushes.

Other folks might have different experience refurbishing saws, but it's something I kind of like to do to a less cosmetically perfect level than other folks do. (cosmetics have nothing to do with the files, though), and on a long saw that needs teeth adjusted badly, you might go through two or three files. That's uncommon, it's more like one, but i did have a saw where I went through three grobet swiss - a spear and jackson that doesn't have the most even hardening in the world.

So I like the good files vs the great files. They prove themselves economically both in heavy use and in light touch-up filing.

Hi David,

I share your view that good files (versus great files) prove himself economically and practically, particularly in heavy use where it's not uncommon to go through 2-3 files when re-profiling the tooth line is necessary before sharpening.

I have also been disappointing lately in the quality of the Grobet "USA" files, particularly those I've received over the past 6-9 months. Seems like the hardness/quality has changed and the teeth on the apex of the file breakdown more quickly than I remember them doing in the past. Coincidentally, although I find the Mexican made Nicholson files to generally be for, I have had a few recently that have been surprisingly decent.

I went through a period of using vintage USA made files (Nicholson, Simonds, Heller etc.) that I found on the mega-auction site. Although few of them were truly fantastic (last a long time and left a very smooth finish), I found the quality of the NOS USA made vintage files was really inconsistent so I've gone back to contemporary files.

I've recently gone through a couple boxes of Grobet USA, Pferd and Bahco files and had a chance to compare them on the same saws. I found the Bahco to be by far the best and they have become my "go to" files for hand saws.

For the finer pitch backsaws I like the Grobet Swiss made files-- although they're expensive, they work very well and the smaller sizes are more readily available. I justify the higher cost because files last longer sharpening the thinner plate backsaws.

Just wanted to pass along my observations FWIW.

All the best, Mike

BTW, good luck with the kitchen cabinets I believe you're working on. I'm very much looking forward to seeing some pictures.

You've inspired me to "consider" replacing our kitchen cabinets, although without a tablesaw the thought of sawing up all that plywood doesn't sound very appealing! Probably the biggest issue for me is the LOML is by far the pickiest customer I've ever had and I could see this project turning into a real "marriage tester"! It would be a shame to risk 30 years of wedded bliss over "creative differences", although wouldn't be the first time!

[David Weaver]

I like the grobet swiss, too. I am a notorious cheap ____ when it comes to files, for exactly the reason you said. If a saw comes with a frown, it might easily be two entire files that you go through, and I have used as many as three. Even a full joint and small follow up joint to correct teeth is a full file. It would chap my rear to buy a $16 saw (which is what my last spectacular S&J fine toothed carpenter's saw ran) and burn through $30 of files to get it in shape (it blew out three swiss grobets, but mcmaster was providing them at $5 a pop -though McM doesn't specify brand and they definitely don't always provide the same thing).

I have also had OK service from the nicholson files. they are not inspiring by any means, but if I'm using a slim taper file, I can usually get by fine with the ones that are $4 at home depot as long as they are not being forced to file an unusually hard saw. I have still been buying those, anyway, but will not in the future if i can continue to get these bahcos for $4.50. I expected opening the box to see a small inconsistency here or there, but really, they are machined perfectly.

To add insult for the grobets, the way they were packed, the dividing paper that is in the box is there, but the files are not packed with it woven between them, they are just under it and the outside of the files show visible minor wear from rubbing against each other. I'm sure it's superficial, but it's ugly. The paper in the bahco boxes protected the files they way it should and they are picture perfect.

As far as the cabinets go, if you have anything at all in your kitchen layout that's out of the ordinary, and if price vs. quality is a consideration at all, making them is definitely the way to go. I didn't have a TS until a couple of weeks ago, and honestly, I could make them fine with handsaws (actually, the first one was made entirely with hand saws). A router makes life easy if you fit them with dados and so far the only iffy part of the process has been the realization that fitting together a dadoed kitchen cabinet has to be done extremely extremly quickly if you're using cheap PVA glue and you want to make any adjustments. If your wife gets a sense of satisfaction from the fact that you're sacrificing your time to do the cabinets for her, then that's even more icing on the cake.

[Izzy Camire]

I just got some Nicholson mill files from Enco. The box said made in Brazil. They look ok for what they are but I am not sure how long they will hold up. Where are the good old American made files?

[David Weaver]

There are none. But if you're looking for mill files and you're not in a huge hurry, watch ebay. You will often find old simonds (maybe some of the simonds are still US made) files NOS on ebay, or other brands that are not super vintage. The files that are really vintage on ebay are sold by hucksters at absurd prices.

A half dozen 10 year old simonds files that cost the same as one new euro file though, that's good stuff.

(and keep your eyes peeled for USA nicholsons at small off-the-beaten-path hardware stores whenever you're coasting around different places)

[Izzy Camire]

Dave, thanks for ideas on where to find good ol American made files.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi David

Some comparisons.

My experience to date is using the Swiss-made Grobet from LN (USA). I have a couple double extra slim 4" left, and now looking for more in this size. I may just get the same again. They are cheap enough ($5 each plus shipping to Oz) compared to other offerings. Lee Valley sell them at $6.50 each. Locally, LN (Australia) sell the Vallorbe, which are $11 (but no international shipping). And from the UK I could get the Bahco ($12 plus shipping). Amazon (USA) wants $56 (plus shipping) for a 10-pack.

Do you, or anyone, have a view on the Vallorbe files?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pinwu Xu]

I like the grobet swiss, too. I am a notorious cheap ____ when it comes to files, for exactly the reason you said. If a saw comes with a frown, it might easily be two entire files that you go through, and I have used as many as three. Even a full joint and small follow up joint to correct teeth is a full file. It would chap my rear to buy a $16 saw (which is what my last spectacular S&J fine toothed carpenter's saw ran) and burn through $30 of files to get it in shape (it blew out three swiss grobets, but mcmaster was providing them at $5 a pop -though McM doesn't specify brand and they definitely don't always provide the same thing).

Thanks, this is invaluable! All the saw filing tutorials covered the technique, but rarely you read about the these consumables (same goes true for sand papers,
sharpening stones, etc.) and a new person would be surprised how fast a file went dull and worried if he's using it the in-proper way.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Try MSC, as they do a good job of stating country of origin and quality level.

[Charles Bjorgen]

A bit off topic from the original post but I wonder if anyone has ever used the vinegar/citric acid treatments to add some working life to these small saw files?

[Hilton Ralphs]

Do you, or anyone, have a view on the Vallorbe files?

I thought these were the Swiss Grobets in disguise?

[george wilson]

Grobet bought out Vallorbe.