A Veneering Question

[Stew Hagerty]

OK, I am a total newbie to veneering. I just purchased one of the manual vacuum presses from Lee Valley

Simple Vacuum Press.jpg

I also picked up a few sets of some cool looking veneers. I've read that whatever you do to one side of a piece of substrate, you need to do to the other. So, the way I understand it, if I put some veneer on one side of a piece of wood then I need to put a piece on the other.

My questions is these...

1 - If I put a double layer on the front, do I need to put a double layer on the back?

2 - Also, If I'm using raw wood veneer on the front, is it ok to put paper-backed on the back?

3 - For that matter, I read that I should double up my veneer. Especially if it is burl. Can I use paper-backed for the other layer?

The reason I'm asking is because I need to pick up a secondary veneer and I thought that, if I can use it, a paper-backed roll would be very convenient.

I could really use some of your advise.

Thanks.

[Zach Dillinger]

Many of the veneered pieces I've seen have only been done on one side. I usually only veneer the face and haven't had any real trouble. Others will disagree, I'm sure, but I don't really think its necessary.

[Mike Henderson]

Please see my comments in your message, below:

OK, I am a total newbie to veneering. I just purchased one of the manual vacuum presses from Lee Valley

Simple Vacuum Press.jpg

I also picked up a few sets of some cool looking veneers. I've read that whatever you do to one side of a piece of substrate, you need to do to the other. So, the way I understand it, if I put some veneer on one side of a piece of wood then I need to put a piece on the other.

My questions is these...

1 - If I put a double layer on the front, do I need to put a double layer on the back

The reason people suggest putting a layer of veneer on the back as well as the front has more to do with moisture intrusion than to anything else. Most people use water based glues. If you veneer one side of a substrate, the moisture from the glue soaks into the substrate and the substrate expands on that side, causing a bending force on the substrate. If you use a thick substrate, you usually won't experience bending. If you use a thin substrate and you're willing to wait until the moisture equalizes again, the substrate will often straighten out, especially if you have a way to lay it flat while the moisture equalizes.

Longer term, if the two sides are not finished equally, moisture can penetrate one side faster than the other and that can cause the substrate to bend for the same reason as above.

My other comment is: "Why put two layers of veneer on the front?" That's usually done when your substrate is natural wood (that expands and contracts a lot) and you lay the two layers of veneer cross ply - to minimize splitting of the show veneer. If your substrate is something stable, like MDF or good plywood, putting two layers of veneer is of little use.

But if you are going to put two layers of veneer on the front, I'd only put one layer on the back.

2 - Also, If I'm using raw wood veneer on the front, is it ok to put paper-backed on the back?
I never tried that - I don't work work much with paper backed veneer. Paper backed veneer is normally used in millwork applications - not furniture - and it's normally applied the same way you would Formica (with contact cement). If this is furniture, I'd prefer to use raw wood veneer and apply with appropriate veneer glue.

3 - For that matter, I read that I should double up my veneer. Especially if it is burl. Can I use paper-backed for the other layer?
There's no reason to double lay your veneer (see above discussion). If you sand through the first layer, it will show even if you have another layer of burl underneath. And good burl is expensive so you don't want to use more than you need. Proper preparation of the substrate will guarantee that nothing telegraphs through the veneer.

The reason I'm asking is because I need to pick up a secondary veneer and I thought that, if I can use it, a paper-backed roll would be very convenient.

I could really use some of your advice.

Thanks.

[Stew Hagerty]

Please see my comments in your message, below:

Thanks so much for the info Mike.

Well, I haven't started a project yet. In fact, I haven't decided on exactly what to even make yet. I'm still in the process of gathering information and the basic tools I'll need, along with some really sweet looking figured veneers that I just couldn't pass up.

So, if I end up using Ply or MDF I can get away with a single layer of raw veneer on each side. Or if I use real wood for a substrate I should then double up the front (and I always figured the under-layer would be a less expensive secondary type), but I can get by with a single layer underneath.

As for the paper-backed, I just thought it might make a good, low cost secondary veneer. Can you get raw veneer in a roll like that? Or does it just come in sheets? And, do you have any recommendations on sourcing a decent secondary veneer.

If I end up with two layers of face veneer, does the color of the under-layer matter?


Oh, and one more thing... Can you recommend a good veneer softener?

[Greg Wease]

I have used one of those little vacuum systems and have a suggestion. If they still come with that sticky rubber closure, don't use it. Instead take a couple thin strips of wood, fold the end of the bag over them and use spring clamps to seal. If you want to test the integrity of your seal, put a few leaves of veneer in the bag and bend the stack as you draw the vacuum. The shape should hold over time. If it flattens out, you are losing vacuum somewhere. Oh, and it takes MANY pumps with that little syringe. You could pull some of the air out with a shopvac first to save your forearms.

Most of my veneer is purchased on eBay. All shapes and sizes--and prices. I agree with the above--stick to raw veneer for best results.

I use veneer softener from Vac-U-Clamp at http://www.vac-u-clamp.com/
There are many formulas for mixing your own but I like the convenience.

Some people do bond burls and other fragile veneers to a backer veneer before gluing to a substrate. So far I haven't felt the need to do so.

[Jim Belair]

I can heartily recommend Mike Burton's "Veneering, A Foundation Course" as a reference book on all things veneer.

http://www.amazon.com/Veneering-Foun...dp_ob_title_bk

[Mike Henderson]

I can heartily recommend Mike Burton's "Veneering, A Foundation Course" as a reference book on all things veneer.

http://www.amazon.com/Veneering-Foun...dp_ob_title_bk

A good book, but I think a better book is "Woodworker's Guide to Veneering and Inlay" by Jonathan Benson.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks so much for the info Mike.

Well, I haven't started a project yet. In fact, I haven't decided on exactly what to even make yet. I'm still in the process of gathering information and the basic tools I'll need, along with some really sweet looking figured veneers that I just couldn't pass up.

So, if I end up using Ply or MDF I can get away with a single layer of raw veneer on each side. Or if I use real wood for a substrate I should then double up the front (and I always figured the under-layer would be a less expensive secondary type), but I can get by with a single layer underneath.

As for the paper-backed, I just thought it might make a good, low cost secondary veneer. Can you get raw veneer in a roll like that? Or does it just come in sheets? And, do you have any recommendations on sourcing a decent secondary veneer.

If I end up with two layers of face veneer, does the color of the under-layer matter?


Oh, and one more thing... Can you recommend a good veneer softener?

You don't have to put a cross ply layer under your show veneer if you use solid wood as a substrate. It's a good practice on large panels and very critical work but for small projects you don't have to do that. Small substrates just don't move enough to cause problems.

I don't think you can purchase raw veneer that's already laid up, but you can find some decent priced veneer that's very wide. For example, mahogany often comes very wide, although it's not as inexpensive as some other veneers.

If you plan to use a cross ply veneer, you want to use something that's close to the same color as the show veneer, just so you don't see a line at the edge. If you're going to edge the panel, then that's not a problem. But I always go with a similar color just to avoid any problems.

Check with a veneer house to see what they have that's inexpensive (often they have a sale on left over veneer) and is similar in color to your show veneer. I'm sure there are many good suppliers out there but I mostly use B&B Rare Woods and Certainly Wood. B&B is usually a bit less expensive. If you call them, Dave will do a good job of giving you recommendations. If you tell them you're a woodworking student, he'll give you a discount.

Mike

[I make my own softener so I don't have any recommendations.]

[Paul R Miller]

Be aware that paper backed veneer is scary thin. You virtually can't sand it at all.

[Frank Drew]

I know that you don't actually need an enormous amount of pressure to veneer, but do those hand pump vacuum systems really work, can they pull a sufficient vacuum?

[Stew Hagerty]

I know that you don't actually need an enormous amount of pressure to veneer, but do those hand pump vacuum systems really work, can they pull a sufficient vacuum?

Apparently it's a proven system. I guess they have used it for years to lay up skateboards. A couple people on here also said it works. I'll find out for sure when I go to use it.

[Jeff Duncan]

Be aware that paper backed veneer is scary thin. You virtually can't sand it at all.

I think maybe your thinking of foil backed? That stuff really is scary thin! Paper backed I've used is much thicker than foil backed, and plenty thick enough for sanding. Then again it probably comes in all different thicknesses depending on where and what you buy?

Also FWIW I use Titebond Cold Press for gluing paper backed veneer with great results. IMHO contact cement should never be used for veneer regardless of backed or not. Contact cement is best kept for laminate.

good luck,
JeffD

[Stew Hagerty]

You don't have to put a cross ply layer under your show veneer if you use solid wood as a substrate. It's a good practice on large panels and very critical work but for small projects you don't have to do that. Small substrates just don't move enough to cause problems.

I don't think you can purchase raw veneer that's already laid up, but you can find some decent priced veneer that's very wide. For example, mahogany often comes very wide, although it's not as inexpensive as some other veneers.

If you plan to use a cross ply veneer, you want to use something that's close to the same color as the show veneer, just so you don't see a line at the edge. If you're going to edge the panel, then that's not a problem. But I always go with a similar color just to avoid any problems.

Check with a veneer house to see what they have that's inexpensive (often they have a sale on left over veneer) and is similar in color to your show veneer. I'm sure there are many good suppliers out there but I mostly use B&B Rare Woods and Certainly Wood. B&B is usually a bit less expensive. If you call them, Dave will do a good job of giving you recommendations. If you tell them you're a woodworking student, he'll give you a discount.

Mike

[I make my own softener so I don't have any recommendations.]

Thanks for all the info Mike. What's you opinion on glues? I have some High Clarity 192 Strength Hide Glue from T4WW, and I also bought some Titebond Cold Press.

I bought the hide glue so that I can give hammer veneering a try. I've watched the Steve Latta episode of Woodwright's Shop several times, and it looks like it'd be a lot of fun.

May I ask how you make your own softener? I've read and heard of multiple formulas.

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks for all the info Mike. What's you opinion on glues? I have some High Clarity 192 Strength Hide Glue from T4WW, and I also bought some Titebond Cold Press.

I bought the hide glue so that I can give hammer veneering a try. I've watched the Steve Latta episode of Woodwright's Shop several times, and it looks like it'd be a lot of fun.

May I ask how you make your own softener? I've read and heard of multiple formulas.

I haven't used a whole lot of different glues on veneer - I probably should buy a selection and try different brands. For small things I usually use white glue - Elmer's GlueAll. For big things I use urea formaldehyde. I've been using ProGlue which is a powder which you mix with water. It's okay but mixing it is a pain - you have to get it to the right consistency and often it gets lumps in the final product. If you wait and stir well, most of the lumps go away. I've used liquid UF glue (don't remember the name now) and it's good but the product has a limited shelf life. Also, UF glue is very slow - usually you need to leave in press overnight, and some of the UF glues require 70 degrees, so I wrap my bag in an electric blanket turned on high.

I once had a table that I wanted to lay in waterfall bubinga in a radial match. Bubinga (of that type) is rotary cut so it expands a LOT when water hits it. After a failure using water based glue, I had to use epoxy - but epoxy is expensive.

I'd have to look up my recipe for softener, but the active ingredient is glycerin. I add alcohol and water. The glycerin absorbs water and will keep the veneer somewhat pliable after you finish processing it. You don't want too much glycerin in the final veneer and that's why you thin it with alcohol and water. You can buy glycerin on eBay and you may find it in your drugstore. People use it to make soap, and I think it's used as a laxative, which is why the drugstore may carry it.

Hopefully, others will chime in with advice on glues they like.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I think maybe your thinking of foil backed? That stuff really is scary thin! Paper backed I've used is much thicker than foil backed, and plenty thick enough for sanding. Then again it probably comes in all different thicknesses depending on where and what you buy?

Also FWIW I use Titebond Cold Press for gluing paper backed veneer with great results. IMHO contact cement should never be used for veneer regardless of backed or not. Contact cement is best kept for laminate.

good luck,
JeffD

I've also glued paper backed veneer with regular glue and it glues fine. But I have to agree with Paul. Paper backed veneer is thin. You can sand it but you need to do it lightly.

I've seen paper back veneer glued with contact cement in certain applications, especially millwork applications where it just was not possible to clamp.

Mike